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=== Proposed definitions ===
[[1|1]].i la cmendrik. goi ko'a puki zukte lenu lei ri xance cu kevna kei tu'a la prinsEs. .Alis,n. djOs,l,n.


;'''.a'i '''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express effort / endeavor / exertion / labor / pains / strife / toil. (cf. troci, gunka, slunandu, selprogunka, fu'i nai)
The sticky past tense was unstuck by Craig, then untensed by Pierre, restored by And, untensed again by Jorge, made present by Rob and Xod and finally restituted by Evgeni.


.a'i mi ze'a ba ralte
I still think my translation was quite good <o'acu'ibu> : "Schmendrick was the agent of the action of making his hands hollow for the purpose of something to do with PAJ."


<br />  ''I'm trying to hold it!''
Craig must have missed my {kei} which would explain PAJ having a hole in her.


.a'i mi ba gasnu lo nu do cikna binxo
I should have written {djAs,l,n} (note my cmene to avoid translating princess)


<br /> ''It'll be hard for me to wake you up.''
I don't know whether the short final vowel in "Schmendrick" always making it into English was a good or a bad thing.


;'''.a'i cu'i'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express effortlessness / ease / facility / no special effort (cf. selfrili, fu'i)
[[2|2]].ibo ri cpare .u'inairo'o .uanairu'e fi le xirli'ustizu


.a'i cu'i ti frili
I forgot the {dai} that I had intended to add after the attitudinals ; I don't know how I could have expressed them with tanru. Craig told me he couldn't work out the "in some confusion".


<br />  ''Ah, this is easy.''
Pierre's {ri} unfortunately referred to the hands &&'s relative subsisted throughout.


;'''.a'i nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express repose / inaction / inactivity / passivity / lackadaisicalness / indolence(cf. toltoi, cando, guksurla)
It was also unfortunate that {cpare} is glossed both "climb" and "creep/crawl" with the effect climb -> creep -> slowly move -> [[slowly and tiredly|slowly and tiredly]][[move|move]] (I liked Xod's {jebo})


.a'i nai cikre ta
I don&#8217;t know whether an x1 of xirli'ustizu can fill the place of a direction, but I decided it was close enough. Thanks, And, for complimenting my "saddle" lujvo. I don't care much for either "horse-seat" or "horse-back-seat", but as Craig pointed out, it could have been some sort of carriage &#8211; only by reverse engineering that I would have said {karce} does the lujvo become fairly unambiguous.


<br />  ''Nah, why bother fixing it.''
cpare in this context almost warrants a zi'o in x2, pe'i it is also unstatisfactory for climbing up ladders and stairs.


;'''.ai''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express intent / intentionality / purpose / design  (cf. zukte, platu)
[[3|3]].i ko'a gasnu lenu le xirma cu carna kei secu'u di'e


.ai mi ze'e ba jmive<br />
I didn't write {cargau} because I find working out place-strctures for lujvo rather taxing ; I wasn't sure the x2 would be the object that is turned. Everyone else agreed with {cargau} though.


''I intend to live forever.''
Using {C} is much nicer than assigning {ko'a}


.ai le mi cukta do sidju gi'e pacnygau<br />
I wasn't sure whether multiple utterances had their place in lu&#8230;li'u so I used di'e followed by tu'e&#8230;tu'u


''I intend for my book to give you help and hope.''
[[4|4]]ki tu'e .i ju'o do bazi backla fu'i fo'a ni'i leza'i fo'a baca'a masno xirkla


;'''.ai cu'i''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indecision / hesitation / vacillation / wavering. 
This sentence got destroyed :^}


.ai cu'i mi ti ba te vecnu<br />
{ju'o} survived


''I don't know whether I'll purchase these or not.''
I probably shouldn't have qualified the ba. I'm not quite sure why *i became *a.


;'''.ai nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express non-intent / unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness. (cf. selsnuti)
I still can think of no better lujvo for "overtake" (-> exceed -> transcend).


.ai nai mi gunka ca le pavdei<br />
I think fu'i can survive without the {dai}. Craig did, however, missunderstand it. Pierre translated Craig litterally. And restored the proper meaning and Xod restored the attitudinal.


''I'm not planning to work on Monday.''
I still think that ni'i is correct. (.ini'ibo also works). And inversed the cause and the consequence &#8211; otherwise it would have worked quite well.


.ai nai mi jmina lo valsi poi mi finti<br />
The baca'a that wasn't necessary went through became ca'o and died.


''I don't mean to add words of my own devising.''
I liked Jorge Rob and Xod's efforts at adding some sort of cmavo to make the sentence mean something (tezu'e, make sure to, a'i &#8211; I would have had a'idai)


.ai nai do pu se xrani<br />
I like Jorge's xirli'u better then xirkla


''I didn't mean for you to get hurt.''
[[5|5]].i fo'a xamgu nanmu gi'e banli leka vrirnau semau le vamji be roda poi telda'a


;'''.au''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express desire / wish / yearning / aspiration. (cf. djica)
I made two lujvo mistakes in this sentence: It should have been {vrinau} and {terda'a}


.au lo tricu cu krati lo ro se genja gi'e sfasa lo kusru be gy<br />
I also should have put a {kei} after {vrinau}. What I put actually means "he is great in the property of being more a hero than any cause is worth"


''Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!''
I'm not sure that Pierre's introducing various attitudinals is very good from a translation point of view (that is, BTW also a problem with [http://nuzban.wiw.org/wiki/index.php?HamletAct1Scene1 amlet] , if you put an attitudinal in the play, it's as if you choose a tone of voice. If you don't because they're not there in the original, the lojban actor cannot express emotion without adding some &#8211; and he can't do this because it spoils the meter (not yet, but I hope to transform my prose into verse &#8211; some day) ''When there is a meter, an attitudinal can be added to the start of each line. It then adds a syllable to each line.''


;'''.au cu'i''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indifference / apathy / disinterest. (cf. nordji)
"than any cause is worth", became  "than anything worth fighting over" -> [[read what xod wrote|read what xod wrote]]


.au cu'i makau jinga<br />
This bit didn't do as badly as I'd thought


''I don't really care who wins.''
[[6|6]].i mi benji ro lemi tixnu be nolraitru ku fo'a


;'''.au nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express reluctance / averseness / disinclination. (cf. toldji)
A pity about benji->dunda and Rob inversing the giver and the present (his only mistake, BTW). I forgot the {lo} before nolraitru. Any {***ti'u be mi} implies that there is a paternal relationship between Shmendrick and the princesses, as Evgeni translated. I would comment more but I'm getting a bit tired&#8230;


.au nai mi cliva<br />
[[7|7]].i fo'a selcme zo lir. tu'u


''I'm reluctant to leave.''
I chose {selcme} to preserve word-order (mi'e greg)
 
;'''.a'o''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express hope / longing. (cf. pacna)
 
.a'o le nobli cu gidva lo se zukte be mi<br />
 
''Oh, that the Lord would guide my ways.''
 
;'''.a'o nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express despair / hopelessness / dread / fear that a situation ensues. (cf. tolpacna)
 
.a'o nai ro da ca se cirko<br />
 
''Everything will be lost now.''
 
;'''.ei''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express obligation / how things ought to be. (cf. bilga) 
 
.ei mi cliva co'o<br />
 
''Gotta go now, bye!''
 
.ei le jatna cu ckeji<br />
 
''The president ought to be ashamed.''
 
.ei do djuno<br />
 
''You ought to know.''
 
;'''.ei nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express  freedom / lack of obligation / how things need not be. (cf. zifre)
 
.ei nai do tolnurcni<br />
 
''You don't have to feel threatened.''
 
;'''.e'a''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to permit / allow / grant permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. curmi) 
 
.e'a do tsebi'o<br />
 
''You may sit down.''
 
;'''.e'a nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to prohibit / forbid / deny permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. tolcru)
 
.e'a nai do ti stali<br />
 
''You can't stay here.''
 
;'''.e'e''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to exhort / incite / motivate / encourage / entreat / stimulate / challenge / dare / provoke / invite competition. (cf. talsa)
 
.e'e ko jarco lo se kakne be do<br />
 
''Show them what you can do! Go for it!''
 
.e'e mi do bajra jivna fe'e co'u le karce<br />
 
''I'll race you to the car!''
 
;'''.e'e nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discourage / intimidate / demoralize / deprecate / dampen / bridle / avoid / dodge / elude / duck / evade / back off / withdraw. (cf. zunti, dicra)
 
.e'e nai doi nelis<br />
 
''Whoa, Nelly!''
 
.e'e nai mi bilga lo nu zukte lo drata<br />
 
''Sorry, I have other things to do.''
 
;'''.e'i''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to command / dictate / instruct / order / oblige / constrain / impose an obligation.  (cf. minde, ri'urgau)
 
.e'i ko ta mi dunda<br />
 
''Give that to me!''
 
;'''.e'i nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discharge / absolve / dismiss / exonerate / liberate / release / unbind / free of an obligation. (cf. zi'ergau)
 
.e'i nai ko zukte lo se djica be do<br />
 
''Do whatever you please!''
 
;'''.e'o''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to make a request. (cf. cpedu, pe'u)
 
.e'o do dunda le silna mi<br />
 
''Can you pass me the salt, please?''
 
;'''.e'o nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to grant / cede / proffer / make an offer. (cf. friti)
 
.e'o nai ko lebna lo titla<br />
 
''Here, have some candy.''
 
;'''.e'u''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to suggest / persuade / advise. (cf. stidi)
 
.e'u mi'o salci<br />
 
''Let's party!''
 
;'''.e'u nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to dissuade / warn / disadvise. (cf. kajde, o'i)
 
.e'u nai do kargau le moklu<br />
 
''You better not open your mouth.''
 
;'''ia'''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express belief / conviction / faith / certainty (cf. krici, birti, jinvi)
 
ia lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''Indeed God exists.''
 
;'''ia cu'i'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express skepticism / doubt / agnosticism / uncertainty. (cf. senpi)
 
ia cu'i lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''Hmm ... God may or may not exist.''
 
;'''ia nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disbelief / incredulity / rejection (cf. tolkri)
 
ia nai lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''I don't believe God exists.''
 
;'''ie'''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express agreement / concordance / accord / concurrence. (cf. tugni)
 
ie ta melbi<br />
 
''Yes, that's beautiful.''
 
;'''ie nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disagreement / dissent / contention / difference / argument. (cf. toltu'i)
 
ie nai go'i<br />
 
''I disagree with that.''
 
=== Notes ===
 
* The definitions of ''e'e'' and ''e'i'' are based on a very loose interpretation of some of the keywords, so that they fit the e-series, which in all other cases expresses the speaker's attitude towards the audience's bringing about some situation.
 
* '''ai nai''' changed from rejection / refusal (which is '''i'a nai''') to unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness.
 
* '''e'o nai''' "make an offer", instead of "negative request"?
** I have no idea what a "negative request" is. I do, however, see how "offer" is a negative of "request". - .aionys.
 
* '''e'u cu'i''' "abandon suggestion"?
 
* selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good.  The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have.
 
===  Section Issues ===
 
* Recent discussions have brought up the question of whether a realis/irrealis dichotomy makes sense at all, or whether all bridi are implicitly semi-realis, with some attitudinals leading to stronger implications one way or the other. Public opinion seems to be in favor of removing the split. If so, the definitions may need to be tweaked to make this more clear. If not, then someone needs to speak up in defense of the split.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/dc6bb04a6f9167f3 The realis/irrealis distinction] has been rather hotly debated over the years. It is my ( Lindar ) opinion that the reality/irreality of the UI is dependent upon the reality/irreality of the jufra, and can be indicated with da'i/da'inai or some other kind of marker. This way ''ni'o .a'o mi klama'' can mean ''I hope I go.'' in one instance and ''I'm going, about which I feel hopeful.'' for another, rather than being restricted to one meaning.
 
=== Poll ===
 
{POLL(pollId=>24)}BPFK Poll: Irrealis Attitudinals{POLL}

Latest revision as of 16:22, 23 March 2014

1.i la cmendrik. goi ko'a puki zukte lenu lei ri xance cu kevna kei tu'a la prinsEs. .Alis,n. djOs,l,n.

The sticky past tense was unstuck by Craig, then untensed by Pierre, restored by And, untensed again by Jorge, made present by Rob and Xod and finally restituted by Evgeni.

I still think my translation was quite good <o'acu'ibu> : "Schmendrick was the agent of the action of making his hands hollow for the purpose of something to do with PAJ."

Craig must have missed my {kei} which would explain PAJ having a hole in her.

I should have written {djAs,l,n} (note my cmene to avoid translating princess)

I don't know whether the short final vowel in "Schmendrick" always making it into English was a good or a bad thing.

2.ibo ri cpare .u'inairo'o .uanairu'e fi le xirli'ustizu

I forgot the {dai} that I had intended to add after the attitudinals ; I don't know how I could have expressed them with tanru. Craig told me he couldn't work out the "in some confusion".

Pierre's {ri} unfortunately referred to the hands &&'s relative subsisted throughout.

It was also unfortunate that {cpare} is glossed both "climb" and "creep/crawl" with the effect climb -> creep -> slowly move -> slowly and tiredlymove (I liked Xod's {jebo})

I don’t know whether an x1 of xirli'ustizu can fill the place of a direction, but I decided it was close enough. Thanks, And, for complimenting my "saddle" lujvo. I don't care much for either "horse-seat" or "horse-back-seat", but as Craig pointed out, it could have been some sort of carriage – only by reverse engineering that I would have said {karce} does the lujvo become fairly unambiguous.

cpare in this context almost warrants a zi'o in x2, pe'i it is also unstatisfactory for climbing up ladders and stairs.

3.i ko'a gasnu lenu le xirma cu carna kei secu'u di'e

I didn't write {cargau} because I find working out place-strctures for lujvo rather taxing ; I wasn't sure the x2 would be the object that is turned. Everyone else agreed with {cargau} though.

Using {C} is much nicer than assigning {ko'a}

I wasn't sure whether multiple utterances had their place in lu…li'u so I used di'e followed by tu'e…tu'u

4ki tu'e .i ju'o do bazi backla fu'i fo'a ni'i leza'i fo'a baca'a masno xirkla

This sentence got destroyed :^}

{ju'o} survived

I probably shouldn't have qualified the ba. I'm not quite sure why *i became *a.

I still can think of no better lujvo for "overtake" (-> exceed -> transcend).

I think fu'i can survive without the {dai}. Craig did, however, missunderstand it. Pierre translated Craig litterally. And restored the proper meaning and Xod restored the attitudinal.

I still think that ni'i is correct. (.ini'ibo also works). And inversed the cause and the consequence – otherwise it would have worked quite well.

The baca'a that wasn't necessary went through became ca'o and died.

I liked Jorge Rob and Xod's efforts at adding some sort of cmavo to make the sentence mean something (tezu'e, make sure to, a'i – I would have had a'idai)

I like Jorge's xirli'u better then xirkla

5.i fo'a xamgu nanmu gi'e banli leka vrirnau semau le vamji be roda poi telda'a

I made two lujvo mistakes in this sentence: It should have been {vrinau} and {terda'a}

I also should have put a {kei} after {vrinau}. What I put actually means "he is great in the property of being more a hero than any cause is worth"

I'm not sure that Pierre's introducing various attitudinals is very good from a translation point of view (that is, BTW also a problem with amlet , if you put an attitudinal in the play, it's as if you choose a tone of voice. If you don't because they're not there in the original, the lojban actor cannot express emotion without adding some – and he can't do this because it spoils the meter (not yet, but I hope to transform my prose into verse – some day) When there is a meter, an attitudinal can be added to the start of each line. It then adds a syllable to each line.

"than any cause is worth", became "than anything worth fighting over" -> read what xod wrote

This bit didn't do as badly as I'd thought

6.i mi benji ro lemi tixnu be nolraitru ku fo'a

A pity about benji->dunda and Rob inversing the giver and the present (his only mistake, BTW). I forgot the {lo} before nolraitru. Any {***ti'u be mi} implies that there is a paternal relationship between Shmendrick and the princesses, as Evgeni translated. I would comment more but I'm getting a bit tired…

7.i fo'a selcme zo lir. tu'u

I chose {selcme} to preserve word-order (mi'e greg)