https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&feed=atom&action=historyZAhO as sumti tcita - Revision history2024-03-28T15:05:19ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=115314&oldid=prevGleki at 18:34, 12 June 20152015-06-12T18:34:50Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Using '''ca''' in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; '''ca'o''' or '''co'i''' would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Using '''ca''' in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; '''ca'o''' or '''co'i''' would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as '''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci''' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as '''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci''' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*xod:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime. Consider''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Consider ''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>broda co'a le nunbrode co'u le nunbrodi''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>broda co'a le nunbrode co'u le nunbrodi</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>With interpretation #1 (the standard one), this means that broda occurs, and it occurs at the start of brode and at the end of brodi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>With interpretation #2 (the non-standard one), this means that broda occurs, and the beginning of broda is at brode, and the end of broda is at brodi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''With interpretation #1 (the standard one), this means that broda occurs, and it occurs at the start of brode and at the end of brodi.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Interpretation #2 is the one I prefer because it fits with the interpretation of all other tags. In general <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''broda <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><nowiki></ins><tag<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">></nowiki> <nowiki</ins>><sumti><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></nowiki>'</ins>'' is a more <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">elaborated </ins>form of ''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'<nowiki></ins><tag<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">></nowiki</ins>> broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', where the sumti serves to complete the meaning of the tag. It is only with weird interpretation #1 that the general rule breaks down and the tag somehow finds its way into the selbri within the tagged sumti.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>With interpretation #2 (the non-standard one), this means that broda occurs, and the beginning of broda is at brode, and the end of broda is at brodi. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--xod''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***xod</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>To flip a cmavo to its exact opposite meaning, when so many people already have trouble memorizing how it goes, is the most egregious example of [[tinkering|tinkering]] I can recount.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Interpretation #2 is the one I prefer because it fits with the interpretation of all other tags. In general ''broda <tag> <sumti>'' is a more <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ellaborated </del>form of ''<tag> broda'', where the sumti serves to complete the meaning of the tag. It is only with weird interpretation #1 that the general rule breaks down and the tag somehow finds its way into the selbri within the tagged sumti. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--mi'e [[User</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xorxes|xorxes]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*****[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">******</ins>Because of that confusion I don't use <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pu'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ba'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sumtcita</ins>. It is always clearer to say <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>ca le nu ba'o broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>than the odd <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ba'o le nu broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', so interpretation #1 is never needed.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>To flip a cmavo to its exact opposite meaning, when so many people already have trouble memorizing how it goes, is the most egregious example of [[tinkering|tinkering]] I can recount. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--xod''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>[[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Pierre Abbat</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">phma</ins>]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>mi klama la <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins>carlyt. fe'e za'o la <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins>painvil.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>mean?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of that confusion I don't use ''pu'o'' and ''ba'o'' as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sumti tcita</del>. It is always clearer to say <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>ca le nu ba'o broda<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>than the odd ''ba'o le nu broda'', so interpretation #1 is never needed. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--mi'e </del>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">User:xorxes</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xorxes</del>]]</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>mi klama la carlyt. fe'e za'o la painvil.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>mean? <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[Pierre Abbat|phma]]</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=115313&oldid=prevGleki at 18:31, 12 June 20152015-06-12T18:31:15Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In essence, either interpretation will work similarly for '''ca'o''' and '''co'i''', since they mark two events as coincident in time. However, the most natural interpretation of '''ba'o''' and '''pu'o''' (and the one used in the examples in the book) is the first interpretation, which does not make much sense for the rest of ZAhO. For example:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In essence, either interpretation will work similarly for '''ca'o''' and '''co'i''', since they mark two events as coincident in time. However, the most natural interpretation of '''ba'o''' and '''pu'o''' (and the one used in the examples in the book) is the first interpretation, which does not make much sense for the rest of ZAhO. For example:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{mu|co'a le nu mi tadni la lojban kei mi racli pensi|#1: When I start studying Lojban, I think rationally.<br/>#2: Starting when I study lojban, I think rationally.}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;co</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a </del>le nu <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi tadni la lojban kei mi racli pensi : </del>#1: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">When I start studying Lojban, I think rationally</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>#2: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Starting </del>when <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I study lojban, I think rationally</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{mu|le xirma cu bajra za</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o </ins>le nu <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cirko le cutci|</ins>#1: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The horse runs when it is still losing its shoe</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><br/></ins>#2: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The horse keeps on running </ins>when <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it loses its shoe</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;</del>le <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xirma cu bajra za</del>'o le nu <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cirko </del>le <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cutci : #1: </del>The <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">horse runs when it is still losing its shoe</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>#2<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: The horse keeps on running when </del>it <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">loses its shoe</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">On the other hand, interpretation #2 applied to '''ba'o''' and '''pu'o''' would result in them switching places:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{mu|#1: mi morsi ba'o </ins>le <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">nu mi jmiv<br/>#2: mi morsi pu</ins>'o le nu <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi jmive (=mi pu'o morsi ca </ins>le <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">nu mi jmive)|I die in the aftermath of my living ([[CLL|</ins>The <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Book]], example 10.12</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">6)}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Interpretation </ins>#2 <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is initially counterintuitive, but we could probably get used to </ins>it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">On the other hand, interpretation #2 applied to ''ba'o'' and ''pu'o'' would result in</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{mu</ins>|mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|</ins>[[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">CLL</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The Book</ins>]], example 10.12.8<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><br/></ins>#1: I go to the market before having eaten<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><br/></ins>#2: I have not yet gone/am on the verge of going to the market when I eat.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">them switching places:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;I die in the aftermath of my living ([[the book</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(the book]], example 10.12.6) : #1: mi morsi ba'o le nu mi jmive #2: mi morsi pu'o le nu mi jmive (=mi pu'o morsi ca le nu mi jmive) Interpretation #2 is initially counterintuitive, but we could probably get used to it.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;</del>mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(</del>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the book</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(the book</del>]], example 10.12.8<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">) : </del>#1: I go to the market before having eaten <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>#2: I have not yet gone/am on the verge of going to the market when I eat.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So what should be done? Use two different interpretations for ZAhO?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So what should be done? Use two different interpretations for ZAhO?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Stick to the book and throw out all those nice interpretations for</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Stick to the book and throw out all those nice interpretations for the rest of ZAhO? Use the second interpretation for all ZAhO and get used to its effects on <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ba'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pu'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''? Stop using ZAhO as tags completely and rely on the paraphrases (the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-</ins>atismo principle of [[conlang|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">conlangs</ins>]])?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>the rest of ZAhO? Use the second interpretation for all ZAhO and get</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>used to its effects on ''ba'o'' and ''pu'o''? Stop using ZAhO as tags</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>completely and rely on the paraphrases (the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[atismo|</del>atismo<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]] </del>principle of [[conlang <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">onlangs</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">conlang onlangs</del>]])?</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''(Using "ca" in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; "ca'o" or "co'i" would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.)''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- </del>[[Adam|Adam]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>[[Adam|Adam]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**Using '''ca''' in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; '''ca'o''' or '''co'i''' would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as ''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime. Consider''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime. Consider''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=115312&oldid=prevGleki at 18:27, 12 June 20152015-06-12T18:27:03Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:27, 12 June 2015</td>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[CLL|The Book]] describes ZAhO [[sumtcita]] as follows:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{quotation|The event described in the sumti is viewed as a process, and the action of the main bridi occurs at the phase of the process which the ZAhO specifies, or at least some part of that phase. The action of the main bridi itself is seen as a point event, so that there is no issue about which phase of the main bridi is intended.|[[CLL]], 10.12, p. 232-233}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The book describes </del>ZAhO <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sumti tcita </del>as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">follows </del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">10</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">12</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">p</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">232-233</del>)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">#Thus, '''broda ZAhO le nu brode''' can be paraphrased as '''broda ca le nu ZAhO brode'''. This interpretation works naturally for '''ba'o''', '''co'i''', '''ca'o''', '''pu'o'''. (interpretation #1)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">#However, a different interpretation is more useful with the rest, namely:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">#:'''broda </ins>ZAhO <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">le nu brode''' can be paraphrased </ins>as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''ZAhO broda ca le nu brode''', which specifies that the phase of the main bridi which the ZAhO specifies happens at the same time as the tagged bridi. Thus, '''co'a''' is a good translation for ''starting when...'', '''co'u''' and '''mo'u''' for ''until...'', '''de'a''' for ''pausing when...'', '''di'a''' for ''resuming when...'', '''za'o''' for ''still happening when...'' </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i.e</ins>., <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it tags part of the event that happens too long</ins>.) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(interpretation #2)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;:"The event described in the sumti is viewed as a process, and the action of the main bridi occurs at the phase of the process which the ZAhO specifies, or at least some part of that phase. The action of the main bridi itself is seen as a point event, so that there is no issue about which phase of the main bridi is intended."</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In essence, either interpretation will work similarly for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ca'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''co'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', since they mark two events as coincident in time. However, the most natural interpretation of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ba'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pu'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' (and the one used in the examples in the book) is the first interpretation, which does not make much sense for the rest of ZAhO. For example:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Thus, "broda ZAhO le nu brode" can be paraphased as</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"broda ca le nu ZAhO brode". This interpretation works naturally for</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''ba'o'', ''co'i'', ''ca'o'', ''pu'o''. (interpretation #1)</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">However, a different interpretation is more useful with the rest, namely:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"broda ZAhO le nu brode" can be paraphrased as "ZAhO broda ca le nu brode", which specifies that</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the phase of the main bridi which the ZAhO specifies happens at the same time</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">as the tagged bridi. Thus, ''co'a'' is a good translation for ''starting when...'',</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''co'u'' and ''mo'u'' for ''until...'', ''de'a'' for ''pausing when...'', ''di'a'' for</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''resuming when...'', ''za'o'' for ''still happening when...'' (i.e., it tags part</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">of the event that happens too long.) (interpretation #2)</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In essence, either interpretation will work similarly for ''ca'o'' and ''co'i'', since</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>they mark two events as coincident in time. However, the most natural interpretation</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>of ''ba'o'' and ''pu'o'' (and the one used in the examples in the book) is the first</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>interpretation, which does not make much sense for the rest of ZAhO. For example:</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;co'a le nu mi tadni la lojban kei mi racli pensi : #1: When I start studying Lojban, I think rationally. #2: Starting when I study lojban, I think rationally.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;co'a le nu mi tadni la lojban kei mi racli pensi : #1: When I start studying Lojban, I think rationally. #2: Starting when I study lojban, I think rationally.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=115311&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moveu a página zAhO as sumti tcita para ZAhO as sumti tcita sobre um redirecionamento sem deixar um redirecionamento2015-06-12T18:14:50Z<p>Gleki moveu a página <a href="/index.php?title=zAhO_as_sumti_tcita&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="zAhO as sumti tcita (page does not exist)">zAhO as sumti tcita</a> para <a href="/papri/ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita" title="ZAhO as sumti tcita">ZAhO as sumti tcita</a> sobre um redirecionamento sem deixar um redirecionamento</p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=100566&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page ZAhO as sumti tcita to zAhO as sumti tcita: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:38:27Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita" title="ZAhO as sumti tcita">ZAhO as sumti tcita</a> to <a href="/index.php?title=zAhO_as_sumti_tcita&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="zAhO as sumti tcita (page does not exist)">zAhO as sumti tcita</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=92527&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T16:16:42Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[Adam|Adam]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[Adam|Adam]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as ''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want. --[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as ''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime. Consider''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Interpretation #2 seems to make an additional claim about the main bridi rather than fixing its location in spacetime. Consider''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=92439&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T16:15:08Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:15, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l56">Line 56:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''(Using "ca" in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; "ca'o" or "co'i" would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.)''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''(Using "ca" in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; "ca'o" or "co'i" would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.)''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Adam|Adam]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[Adam|Adam]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as ''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I find that interpretation #1 is the one which sounds reasonable in each case. The "horse" one could be phrased as ''le xirma cu za'o bajra ba le nu cirko le cutci'' without confusion. This other interpretation of ZAhO is one which is somewhat nice-sounding, but that shouldn't be a reason to ambiguate a selma'o, especially since in most cases a simple rearrangement of the sentence would convey the meaning you want. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of that confusion I don't use ''pu'o'' and ''ba'o'' as sumti tcita. It is always clearer to say {ca le nu ba'o broda} than the odd ''ba'o le nu broda'', so interpretation #1 is never needed. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of that confusion I don't use ''pu'o'' and ''ba'o'' as sumti tcita. It is always clearer to say {ca le nu ba'o broda} than the odd ''ba'o le nu broda'', so interpretation #1 is never needed. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does {mi klama la carlyt. fe'e za'o la painvil.} mean? --[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does {mi klama la carlyt. fe'e za'o la painvil.} mean? --[[Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=90981&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: ZAhO as sumti tcita to ZAhO as sumti tcita without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:53:18Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: ZAhO as sumti tcita (page does not exist)">jbocre: ZAhO as sumti tcita</a> to <a href="/papri/ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita" title="ZAhO as sumti tcita">ZAhO as sumti tcita</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=87486&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: t" to "t"2014-03-23T11:51:20Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: t" to "t"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:51, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l40">Line 40:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>them switching places:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>them switching places:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;I die in the aftermath of my living ([[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>the book|(the book]], example 10.12.6) : #1: mi morsi ba'o le nu mi jmive #2: mi morsi pu'o le nu mi jmive (=mi pu'o morsi ca le nu mi jmive) Interpretation #2 is initially counterintuitive, but we could probably get used to it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;I die in the aftermath of my living ([[the book|(the book]], example 10.12.6) : #1: mi morsi ba'o le nu mi jmive #2: mi morsi pu'o le nu mi jmive (=mi pu'o morsi ca le nu mi jmive) Interpretation #2 is initially counterintuitive, but we could probably get used to it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka ([[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>the book|(the book]], example 10.12.8) : #1: I go to the market before having eaten #2: I have not yet gone/am on the verge of going to the market when I eat.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;mi klama le zarci pu'o le nu mi citka ([[the book|(the book]], example 10.12.8) : #1: I go to the market before having eaten #2: I have not yet gone/am on the verge of going to the market when I eat.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So what should be done? Use two different interpretations for ZAhO?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So what should be done? Use two different interpretations for ZAhO?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l70">Line 70:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Interpretation #2 is the one I prefer because it fits with the interpretation of all other tags. In general ''broda <tag> <sumti>'' is a more ellaborated form of ''<tag> broda'', where the sumti serves to complete the meaning of the tag. It is only with weird interpretation #1 that the general rule breaks down and the tag somehow finds its way into the selbri within the tagged sumti. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Interpretation #2 is the one I prefer because it fits with the interpretation of all other tags. In general ''broda <tag> <sumti>'' is a more ellaborated form of ''<tag> broda'', where the sumti serves to complete the meaning of the tag. It is only with weird interpretation #1 that the general rule breaks down and the tag somehow finds its way into the selbri within the tagged sumti. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''To flip a cmavo to its exact opposite meaning, when so many people already have trouble memorizing how it goes, is the most egregious example of [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>tinkering|tinkering]] I can recount. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''To flip a cmavo to its exact opposite meaning, when so many people already have trouble memorizing how it goes, is the most egregious example of [[tinkering|tinkering]] I can recount. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of that confusion I don't use ''pu'o'' and ''ba'o'' as sumti tcita. It is always clearer to say {ca le nu ba'o broda} than the odd ''ba'o le nu broda'', so interpretation #1 is never needed. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of that confusion I don't use ''pu'o'' and ''ba'o'' as sumti tcita. It is always clearer to say {ca le nu ba'o broda} than the odd ''ba'o le nu broda'', so interpretation #1 is never needed. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does {mi klama la carlyt. fe'e za'o la painvil.} mean? --[[jbocre: Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What does it mean to use a non-event sumti tagged by ZAhO? For example, what does {mi klama la carlyt. fe'e za'o la painvil.} mean? --[[jbocre: Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ZAhO_as_sumti_tcita&diff=87369&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T11:50:12Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:50, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>used to its effects on ''ba'o'' and ''pu'o''? Stop using ZAhO as tags</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>used to its effects on ''ba'o'' and ''pu'o''? Stop using ZAhO as tags</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>completely and rely on the paraphrases (the [[atismo|atismo]] principle of [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>conlang onlangs|conlang onlangs]])?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>completely and rely on the paraphrases (the [[atismo|atismo]] principle of [[conlang onlangs|conlang onlangs]])?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''(Using "ca" in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; "ca'o" or "co'i" would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.)''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''(Using "ca" in the paraphrases is not completely accurate, because of its aoristic properties; "ca'o" or "co'i" would be more accurate. Still, it's good not to use ZAhO as a tag when trying to define ZAhO as a tag.)''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Gleki