Difference between revisions of "User:Tsali"

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{{About|a person la tsali}}
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{{Infobox person
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| name              = Arnt Johansen
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| other_names = [[User: Broca|Broca]]
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| native_name              = la tsali
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| native_name_lang              = jbo
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| birth_name        = Arnt Richard Johansen
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|birth_date        =
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| e_mail        = [mailto:[email protected] [email protected]]
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| occupation        = former president of [[The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]], a member of [[The Logical Language Group]] and [[baupla fuzykamni|baupla fuzykamni]].
  
I think a list like this has been started somewhere on the wiki, but I couldn't find it. I only give a few categories and a few examples. Some of these are "official", others semantically obvious and unavoidable, others may be more controversial. Here goes (--[[jbocre: .greg.|greg.]]):
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| website          = {{URL|http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/}}
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}}
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=Discussion=
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*[[User:John Cowan|John Cowan]]:
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**I don't know why he calls himself "tsali"
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***[[la tsali]]:
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****OK, here is the story of how I chose my name. Basically, it is because I found my name too hard to Lojbanize. The native pronunciation of my name (in [http://www.cs.brown.edu/~dpb/ascii-ipa.html SAMPA]) is <nowiki>['A:n`t` 'r\ikAd` ju'hAnsn,_]</nowiki>. Both the lojbanization according to pronunciation ('''.ant. rikad. .iu'ansn''') and the lojbanization according to orthography ('''.arnt. rikard. .iuxansn''') are unacceptable to me. Therefore I decided to <u>translate</u> my name, and turned to a naming dictionary to find out what my name originally meant.  Apparently, "Arnt" means "eagle", and "Richard" means powerful. To my dismay, there is no shorter word for "eagle" in Lojban than '''cpirAKuila'''. So I decided to stick with my second first name, and named myself [[User:tsali|tsali]].
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*****[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
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******isn't '''vlipa''' closer to "powerful" than '''tsali'''?
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*******[[la tsali]]:
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********Possibly. In fact, now that you mention it, I'm not entirely sure the dictionary said "powerful" or "strong". I always thought of '''vlipa''' as something like "good at something", '''mi vlipa tu'a la lojban .i ku'i mi na'e vlipa le nu cpare'''. But in any case, it's too late to do anything about it now.
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= My opinion on [[cultural gismu|cultural gismu]]/lujvo vs. [[cultural fu'ivla|cultural fu'ivla]] =
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*[[la tsali]]:
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**I disagree with the notion that the creation of cultural gismu gives certain cultures (those with their own gismu) an advantage over others (without cultural gismu) in Lojban usage. This hinges on the assumption that gismu space is special, and that selbri that were created as gismu are somewhat more important than other words. I don't think this was ever the intention of the gismu list. If the word form of cultural gismu does matter, it must be because of [[Zipf's Law|Zipf]]ean shortness. But I don't see the fact that some cultural words are longer than others as a threat to Lojban's cultural neutrality. If they were, surely there would have to be other much worse abominations in the gismu list, as it, too, was created without any form of semantic theory. Those are probably much more difficult to find, as they are hidden to us because of Sapir-Whorfean assumptions, but nevertheless, cultural gismu get attacked because they are easy to spot. I dislike people creating fu'ivla such as '''steito''', or even wresting '''glicybau''' out of lujvo-space with such non-words as '''gli'icybau''', in a misguided attempt to put all cultures on an equal footing. In short, I don't consider this matter important enough to warrant neither a baseline change or making communication in Lojban more difficult and prone to misunderstandings.
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***Jay:
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****Who is removing '''glicybau''' from lujvo space? Not I. And I'm the one who made '''gli'icybau''', which you're so worked up about. I just want cultural fu'ivla to be valid, I'm not trying to say that cultural gismu ought not be valid. (As that would compromise the baseline!)
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****Also, what is the cultural brivla for Norwegian? How are you going to make lujvo with it? (Now now, you can't say "norgo", as that is a non-word.) In the end, we're going to be using cultural fu'ivla/rafsi for most of the world's cultures. I just want things symmetric.
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*****[[la tsali]]:
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******I believe the cultural brivla for Norwegian to be '''bangrnorge''', '''kulnrnorge''' or '''prenrnorge'''. In the rare event that it is needed in a fu'ivla, '''zei''' is more than sufficient.
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=BPFK Work=
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This member presides over:
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'''Checkpointed'''
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* [[BPFK Section: lerfu Forming cmavo]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Tense sumtcita]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Quantity sumtcita]]
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'''Done, ready to vote (according to arj)'''
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* [[BPFK Section: Text Structure cmavo]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Digits]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Linkargs]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Evidentials]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Compass Spatial]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Discursives]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Numeric Tense]]
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'''Work in progress'''
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* [[BPFK Section: Contact Spatial]]
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* [[BPFK Section: Reference Regulators]]
  
== eks ==
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[[Category:BPFK member]]
 
 
ko'a V ko'e broda == ko'a broda ijV ko'e broda
 
 
 
*What happens if I use bound variables? do I use one prenex with scope cmavo or do I repeat the same prenex twice?
 
**Only one prenex. A better way to put it is ''gV ko'a broda gi ko'e broda''. The prenex remains in front of everything. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
 
 
 
== jeks ==
 
 
 
*I'm not sure about these, there may be some tanru problems, I don't know what happens to other sumti (x2, x3 etc).
 
 
 
ko'e broda jV brode == ko'e broda ijV ko'e brode
 
 
 
* [[jbocre: The book|The book]] says expansion of tanru jek-connectives doesn't always work.  The example given is "la .alis. cu blanu je zdani prenu" != "la .alis. cu blanu prenu .ije la .alis. cu zdani prenu", when the interpretation of the tanru is that alice is a person who lives in houses which are blue (though it seems the "je" would likely be left out in that case anyway).
 
 
 
== gadri ==
 
 
 
lo broda cu brode == da poi broda zo'u da brode
 
 
 
le broda goi ko'a e ko'e cu brode == le pamoi broda goi ko'a cu brode ije le remoi broda goi ko'e cu brode
 
 
 
*This last one is useful for determining whether you want ''le broda'' or ''lei broda''
 
 
 
== na ==
 
 
 
da na broda == naku da zo'u da broda
 
 
 
da pu na broda == da na pu broda
 
 
 
== noda ==
 
 
 
noda broda == noda zo'u da broda == naku da zo'u da broda
 
 
 
== tense negation (with PU or FAhA) ==
 
 
 
da punai broda == da na pu broda == naku da zo'u da pu broda
 
 
 
== zi'o ==
 
 
 
ko'e zilPAVbroda == ko'e broda FA zi'o
 
 
 
ko'e broda da .ija ko'e broda noda == ko'e broda zi'o
 
 
 
*This is wrong. The left hand side is a tautology (always true). The right hand side can be true or false depending on the circumstances. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
 
 
 
ko'e broda zi'o ije ko'e broda noda == ko'e broda na'ebo da
 
 
 
*I'd like to know whether this last one makes any sense. I see zi'o as meaning the second to last : "ko'e broda [[jbocre: something maybe|something maybe]]". I want to be able to say "ko'e broda [[jbocre: definately nothing|definately nothing]]" while still claiming "ko'e broda zi'o".
 
**If ''ko'e broda noda'' is true, it can't be true that ''ko'e broda na'eboda''. "Other than something" is just another something. You can say ''ko'e broda zi'o e noda'', just one more syllable. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
 
 
 
***But if "something" is unconstrained, we run out of da ...
 

Latest revision as of 08:50, 18 December 2014

This page is about a person la tsali. For other uses, see Tsali (disambiguation).
Arnt Johansen
Native name la tsali
Born Arnt Richard Johansen
Other names Broca
Occupation former president of The Logical Language Group, a member of The Logical Language Group and baupla fuzykamni.
Website
arj.nvg.org/lojban/
e_mail
[email protected]

Discussion

  • John Cowan:
    • I don't know why he calls himself "tsali"
      • la tsali:
        • OK, here is the story of how I chose my name. Basically, it is because I found my name too hard to Lojbanize. The native pronunciation of my name (in SAMPA) is ['A:n`t` 'r\ikAd` ju'hAnsn,_]. Both the lojbanization according to pronunciation (.ant. rikad. .iu'ansn) and the lojbanization according to orthography (.arnt. rikard. .iuxansn) are unacceptable to me. Therefore I decided to translate my name, and turned to a naming dictionary to find out what my name originally meant. Apparently, "Arnt" means "eagle", and "Richard" means powerful. To my dismay, there is no shorter word for "eagle" in Lojban than cpirAKuila. So I decided to stick with my second first name, and named myself tsali.
          • Jay:
            • isn't vlipa closer to "powerful" than tsali?
              • la tsali:
                • Possibly. In fact, now that you mention it, I'm not entirely sure the dictionary said "powerful" or "strong". I always thought of vlipa as something like "good at something", mi vlipa tu'a la lojban .i ku'i mi na'e vlipa le nu cpare. But in any case, it's too late to do anything about it now.

My opinion on cultural gismu/lujvo vs. cultural fu'ivla

  • la tsali:
    • I disagree with the notion that the creation of cultural gismu gives certain cultures (those with their own gismu) an advantage over others (without cultural gismu) in Lojban usage. This hinges on the assumption that gismu space is special, and that selbri that were created as gismu are somewhat more important than other words. I don't think this was ever the intention of the gismu list. If the word form of cultural gismu does matter, it must be because of Zipfean shortness. But I don't see the fact that some cultural words are longer than others as a threat to Lojban's cultural neutrality. If they were, surely there would have to be other much worse abominations in the gismu list, as it, too, was created without any form of semantic theory. Those are probably much more difficult to find, as they are hidden to us because of Sapir-Whorfean assumptions, but nevertheless, cultural gismu get attacked because they are easy to spot. I dislike people creating fu'ivla such as steito, or even wresting glicybau out of lujvo-space with such non-words as gli'icybau, in a misguided attempt to put all cultures on an equal footing. In short, I don't consider this matter important enough to warrant neither a baseline change or making communication in Lojban more difficult and prone to misunderstandings.
      • Jay:
        • Who is removing glicybau from lujvo space? Not I. And I'm the one who made gli'icybau, which you're so worked up about. I just want cultural fu'ivla to be valid, I'm not trying to say that cultural gismu ought not be valid. (As that would compromise the baseline!)
        • Also, what is the cultural brivla for Norwegian? How are you going to make lujvo with it? (Now now, you can't say "norgo", as that is a non-word.) In the end, we're going to be using cultural fu'ivla/rafsi for most of the world's cultures. I just want things symmetric.
          • la tsali:
            • I believe the cultural brivla for Norwegian to be bangrnorge, kulnrnorge or prenrnorge. In the rare event that it is needed in a fu'ivla, zei is more than sufficient.

BPFK Work

This member presides over: Checkpointed

Done, ready to vote (according to arj)

Work in progress