User:And Rosta

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As pne understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.

For a very brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [1] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.

How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?

Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",

the infamous keyword of xruti)... See Ergativity.

Non-Agentive form & it's corresponding Agentive:

|| cfari | begins | cfagau | initiates

denpa | pauses | depygau | delays

tolcfa | comes to a stop | sisti/dicra | halts/interrupts)

sezyxru | reverts | xruti | restores

cenba | varies | cenbygau/cnegau | alters

jelca | burns | jelgau | ignites

snura | is secure | bandu | protects

masno | is slow | snogau/jabre | retards/brakes)

muvdu | moves | muvgau | causes to move

mrobi'o | dies | catra | kills

banro | develops | banrygau | nurtures

zenba | increases | zengau | augments

banzu | suffices | bazgau | fulfills

culno | is full | tisna | fills

basti | takes the place of | basygau | replaces

klama | goes | bevri | conveys

bilma | is sick | bilmygau | sickens

bredi | is ready | redgau | prepares

carna | turns | cargau | rotates

selcfipu | is confused | cfipu | confuses

cilre | learns | ctuca | teaches

ckeji | feels ashamed | kejgau | humiliates

kakne | is able | curmi | allows

curve | is pure | cuvgau | purifies

danfu | is an answer | dafsku/frati | replies

drani | is correct | dragau | rectifies

farlu | falls | falgau | drops

fatne | is backwards | fatygau | reverses

febvi | comes to a boil | fabgau | boils

porpi | comes apart | popygau | breaks

fukpi | is a copy | fukyzba | duplicates

gacri | is a cover | gairgau | covers over

ganlo | is closed | ganlygau | closes

gusni | illumines | gusygau | illuminates

jdika | contracts | jdikygau | decreases

jinru | bathes | jirgau | immerses

jorne | is joined to | jongau | connects

katna | cutter | katnygau | cuts

burcu | brush | bruzu'e | paints

komcu | is a comb | komzu'e | combs

korcu | is bent | krogau | bends

krefu | repeats | refygau | causes to recur

kunti | is empty | kutygau | vacates

gapru | is above | lafti | lifts

lunbe | is bare | lubgau | denudes

manku | is dark | mangau | darkens

mapti | fits | matygau | matches

muvdu | is in motion | muvgau | moves

selnupre | is a promise | nupre | promises

pagre | penetrates | gregau | causes to penetrate

panlo | is a slice | panlyzba | slices

pijne | is a pin | pijnylasna | pins

pindi | is poor | pidgau | impoverishes

preti | is a question | retsku/tese preti | asks a question

preja | expands | pejgau | spreads

cpana | is on | punji | puts on/at

zvati | at | punji | puts on/at

punli | is a swelling | pulgau | swells

ranji | lasts | ranjygau | causes to last (makes lasting)

ranti | is soft | rangau | softens

ricfu | is rich | cfugau | enriches

panzi | offspring | rorci | procreates

viknu | is thick | viknygau | thickens

ruble | is weak | blegau | weakens

runme | is melting | rumgau | makes melt

runta | dissolves | runtygau | makes dissolve

sepli | is apart | fendi | divides

nenri | is within | setca | inserts

jbini | is between | setca | interposes

spoja | explodes | pojgau | blows up

sraku | is sharp | rakygau | scratches

sudga | is dry | sudgau | dries off

sutra | is fast | sutygau | hastens

tcena | stretches | tengau | extends

terpa | fears | tepygau | frightenss

tinsa | is stiff | tensygau | stiffens

titla | is sweet | titygau | sweetens

tordu | is short | torgau | shortens

tsali | is strong | tsagau | strengthens

tsapi | ia a spice | tsapygau | seasons

vasru | contains | vasygau | encloses

vlipa | is powerful | vligau | empowers

vreji | is a record of | rejgau | records

vrusi | is a flavor | vusyga'e | tastes

panci | is an odor | sumne | smells

zasti | exists | zbasu | creates

zekri | is a crime | zerzukte | commits a crime

zifre | is free | zifygau | liberates ||

(There are doubtless others.)

  • The place structure of xruti has changed during its history...
    • A note here says (1994) that xruti was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the gismu lists of 9-6-94.
    • I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.
  • Lojban distinguishes forms of causation...One could extend the foregoing series with each of the others.
  • One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
    • smuni has meaning---------------tersmu interprets
    • tatpi is tired------------------seltatpi tires
    • fengu is angry------------------selfengu angers
    • torni is twisting---------------seltorni twists
    • xalni is panicked---------------selxalni terrifies
    • zgike is music------------------selzgi makes music

That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of zil-, though:

zilsti comes to a stop 
sisti halts (or dicra interrupts)
zilxru reverts 
xruti restores
zilcatra dies 
catra kills
zilcfipu is confused 
cfipu confuses

--And Rosta

  • Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any catraing involved. I'd use mrobi'o (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of zil- in this manner. xu la .andban. lojbo?) --mi'e .filip.
  • It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)