Relative Clause Veridical Quantification Gotcha: Difference between revisions

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*mi viska le {prenu ku} poi klama
*mi viska le {prenu ku} poi klama


The default is the first; and it doesn't normally any make any difference. But if you're using a [[jbocre: veridical|veridical]] determiner (e.g. ''lo''), and a [[non-veridical|non-veridical]] relativiser (''noi''), note that the claim is by default made of the [[selbri|selbri]] and not of the [[sumti|sumti]]. So
The default is the first; and it doesn't normally any make any difference. But if you're using a [[veridical|veridical]] determiner (e.g. ''lo''), and a [[non-veridical|non-veridical]] relativiser (''noi''), note that the claim is by default made of the [[selbri|selbri]] and not of the [[sumti|sumti]]. So


*mi zvati re lo {muno merjecta noi snanu}
*mi zvati re lo {muno merjecta noi snanu}
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*mi zvati {re lo muno merjecta ku} noi snanu
*mi zvati {re lo muno merjecta ku} noi snanu


Things get even worse without overt quantifiers. [[jbocre: The Complete Lojban Language|The Complete Lojban Language]], [http://www.lojban.org/files/reference-grammar/chap8.html hapter 8] gives example (6.8):
Things get even worse without overt quantifiers. [[The Complete Lojban Language|The Complete Lojban Language]], [http://www.lojban.org/files/reference-grammar/chap8.html hapter 8] gives example (6.8):


*lo prenu noi blabi [[ku|ku]] cu klama le zarci
*lo prenu noi blabi [[ku|ku]] cu klama le zarci
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This means not ''A person, who is white, went to the store'', but ''One out of {all people, who incidentally are white} went to the store'' -- namely, it assumes that all people are white!
This means not ''A person, who is white, went to the store'', but ''One out of {all people, who incidentally are white} went to the store'' -- namely, it assumes that all people are white!


Sagely, therefore, does [[jbocre: The Book|The Book]] state:
Sagely, therefore, does [[The Book|The Book]] state:


;:The safe strategy, therefore, is to always use ''ku'' when attaching a ''noi'' relative clause to a ''lo'' descriptor. Otherwise we may end up claiming far too much.
;:The safe strategy, therefore, is to always use ''ku'' when attaching a ''noi'' relative clause to a ''lo'' descriptor. Otherwise we may end up claiming far too much.

Revision as of 11:07, 30 July 2014

Relative clauses can attach to the selbri of a sumti, or to the entire sumti:

  • mi viska le {prenu poi klama} ku
  • mi viska le {prenu ku} poi klama

The default is the first; and it doesn't normally any make any difference. But if you're using a veridical determiner (e.g. lo), and a non-veridical relativiser (noi), note that the claim is by default made of the selbri and not of the sumti. So

  • mi zvati re lo {muno merjecta noi snanu}

means I've been to 2 out of the {50 U.S. states, which are in the south}, and not I've been to {2 out of the 50 U.S. states}, which are in the south. What you should say is

  • mi zvati {re lo muno merjecta ku} noi snanu

Things get even worse without overt quantifiers. The Complete Lojban Language, hapter 8 gives example (6.8):

  • lo prenu noi blabi ku cu klama le zarci

This means not A person, who is white, went to the store, but One out of {all people, who incidentally are white} went to the store -- namely, it assumes that all people are white!

Sagely, therefore, does The Book state:

The safe strategy, therefore, is to always use ku when attaching a noi relative clause to a lo descriptor. Otherwise we may end up claiming far too much.