https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&feed=atom&action=historyProper Lojban Orthography - Revision history2024-03-28T22:13:53ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=105110&oldid=prevGleki at 08:32, 20 July 20142014-07-20T08:32:58Z<p></p>
<a href="https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=105110&oldid=105109">Show changes</a>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=105109&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page proper Lojban Orthography to Proper Lojban Orthography over a redirect without leaving a redirect2014-07-20T08:29:38Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=proper_Lojban_Orthography&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="proper Lojban Orthography (page does not exist)">proper Lojban Orthography</a> to <a href="/papri/Proper_Lojban_Orthography" title="Proper Lojban Orthography">Proper Lojban Orthography</a> over a redirect without leaving a redirect</p>
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</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=99902&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page Proper Lojban Orthography to proper Lojban Orthography: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:30:04Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/Proper_Lojban_Orthography" title="Proper Lojban Orthography">Proper Lojban Orthography</a> to <a href="/index.php?title=proper_Lojban_Orthography&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="proper Lojban Orthography (page does not exist)">proper Lojban Orthography</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=90077&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: Proper Lojban Orthography to Proper Lojban Orthography without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:45:44Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_Proper_Lojban_Orthography&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: Proper Lojban Orthography (page does not exist)">jbocre: Proper Lojban Orthography</a> to <a href="/papri/Proper_Lojban_Orthography" title="Proper Lojban Orthography">Proper Lojban Orthography</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=75845&oldid=prevGleki at 17:09, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:09:23Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You expect </del>to be <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">able </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">use ''pu'' in place </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''cu'' in front of a selbri </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">close </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">front sumti - right? Wrong </del>- <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">if it's an abstraction!</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lojban is a logical language and, therefore, may be presumed </ins>to be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">reasonably scientific. Why then the horribly unscientific alphabet in which it is written. The symbols used to record the language -- the spoken language that is -- ought </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">be clearly related to the sounds used, not the product </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">irrelevant historical accidents (ultimately what sound started various Egyptian words and how the objects referred </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">by those words were drawn -- </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Just</ins>-<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">So version makes more sense).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''lenu mi klama pu vajni'' </del>is a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sumti with parse:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The sounds of Lojban divide fairly accurately into vowels and consonants (two vowels also have cononantal uses, four consonants vocalic). For vowels, the only significant distinguishing features are height of tongue at the narrowest point and whether that narrowest point </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">front, back, or central. Six of the nine positions are filled: high and mid front and back, low (also central) and central non-low. There may also be heard </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">different central vowel, but it is not significant and so needs no symbol. The two high vowels also appear as on- and off-glides in vowel clusters.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{le < [[jbocre</del>: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">nu </del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi {klama < [jbocre: pu KU|pu KU]] VAU>}</del>) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">KEI] vajni> KU} VAU</del>)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The consonants divide on three basic factors: fortis v. lenis </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">whether voiceless-voiced, or cough-sigh, or a combination, or something else altogether, stop v. continuant, and point of articulation: lips, teeth, hard palate, back of throat. Not all combinations are recognized, and there are also the added factors</ins>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">nasality, lambdacism and rhotacism, that make unique contributions outside some or all these categories. What we have are, in fact, fortis and lenis stops and continuants at lips, teeth and somewhere back of the teeth/alveolum -- call it the hard palate, against future reference. There are then nasals (which are also technically stops, though the air flows is not interrupted, merely diverted, and which are fortis)at lips and teeth (well, mouth roof, since the "teeth" one has palatal and further back allophones). And a rho and a lambda, both also voiced and both more or less teeth (though the rho may go back into the palate some)and both continuants (though the rho may be a trill or even a flap). These four non-systemic additions may also be syllabic. Finally, there are a back fortis fricative, clearly behind the hard palate </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">conceptually), and what is technically a lenis vowel (its character depends on the vowels it comes between</ins>)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, which is treated as a continuant of indefinite -- but unique -- articulation. (There is also a glottal stop -- back fortis stop -- which is significant but always predictable within the full language -- though not merely phonologically</ins>)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I don't. Sounds like someone mislearned </del>that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">tenses mark </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">start </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">selbri</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The task then is to find a symbolism </ins>that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">reflects </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">definition </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">each sound and yet keeps the various sounds visually distinct. The mythic Hangul idea of portraying the articulation immediately suggests itself, but -- in its pure form, at least -- fails the distinctness test: in vowels the difference between high and mid (and possibly between front and back) is not always easy to spot. Further, vowels are probably too important to be givens such minimalist representations (on the other hand, something brief is desirable, since vowels occur much more frequently than consonants)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">To be fair</del>, the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">book says </del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">10</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">1</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">p</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">216</del>) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>The <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">placement of </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">tense construct within </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lojban bridi </del>is easy<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: right before </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">selbri</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It goes immediately after </del>the "<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cu</del>", <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">can </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fact always replace </del>the "<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cu</del>"'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>.'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">' Of course</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it then goes </del>on to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">say </del>''(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">although </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">very </del>complex <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sentences </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">rules for eliding terminators may be changed </del>as a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">result</del>).<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Similarly, the front-middle-back of consonants portayed by a bulge at the appropriate place on a line, the closed v. slightly open marked by the height of a hump</ins>, the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fortis-lenis marked by a tag at the bottom back, and other iconic factors </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">just what to do with rho and lambda is unclear)all tend to require careful writing and a keen sense of what to look for in the reader</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Still</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">this is a place to start</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">So, the vowel sign is a pair of parallel vertical lines, running from capital space (or at least cross-bar</ins>) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to below the writing line. </ins>The <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">differentiation is then by a loop in the appropriate place: "i" (high front) looks like a paragraph sign with its loop whited in and its stem going below the line, "u" (high back) looks like capital "P" with its stem dobled and going below the line. "e" and "o" (mid front and back) look like "d or "q" with the stem extended and "b" or "p" extended. "</ins>a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" (low, central) is </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">loop between the lines and below the writing line, "y" (central, non-low) </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a loop between the lines at the writing level. Only vowels go below the line This makes them </ins>easy <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to spot, too).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">For consonants, rather than the spot along the lines, each position might get an iconic main component a rounded "e" (backward 3) for labials, something sharp (maybe an "x" for meeting teeth) for dentals and something opening the throat (a backward "c" say) for velars. (All of these suggestions need modification at least for handwriting.) The basic symbol is a stop, the continuant is differentiated by a horizontal line through the center of </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">base</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> Lenis is marked by a vertical stroke at the back (vocal cors in operation) and nasals by a tilde over </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">top -- something above is open. (These last two are really problematic.) The rho, lambda, and chi clearly do not fit this iconic pattern, but need symbols all their own. Lambda might be an inverted </ins>"<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">u</ins>" <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to show the lateral tongue drop that is its characteristic feature. Rho's characteristic feature is a buzz (which it shares</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">alas, with spirants at least </ins>and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">which is missing </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">at least one major variant); perhaps something like a "w," with the dental points and </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">iterations would be close enough. The voiceless vowel is just a vowel with its descender cut off and without a loop, a squared off </ins>"<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">u.</ins>" <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> And chi? No bright ideas at all.</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Have fun correcting this.</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pc</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*I actually looked at some of these last night. The vowels aren</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t too bad, but the regular consonants are way too busy to be actually used. I think a different set of icons is needed -- or maybe skipping iconicity altogether</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pc</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Compare Alexander Melville Bell</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s "Visible Speech"</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">which is an entire phonetic alphabet based </ins>on <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a similar notion of iconicity. In fact, the vowels are quite similar </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">what you get here. The consonants are all based off the same shape (a c-like loop) which is turned into different orientations to show lips, velum, tongue-tip, and tongue-body (palatal sounds, basically. Phonetics in Bell</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s day wasn</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t what it is today). Also Herman Miller's Lhoerr alphabet, which is also an attempt at an iconic phonetic alphabet. Either of these actually could already be used with little or no modification </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">just </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">broad transcription).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**Both Bell and Miller give systems for "all" sounds, which are, thus, more </ins>complex <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">than needed for a single language. Bell's system pretty clearly fails the easy distinctness test -- the differentiations are often minute and the overall looks of many items are </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">same (</ins>as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the comment notes: "based off the same shape"). Miller's is </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">bit more varied, but with harder distinctions to learn (the being less iconic -- to my eye</ins>). <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">But there are true type fonts for both, and unicode.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Oh, and it was Phoenecian, not Egyptian.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**Arguable. Each older version found is from farther south and closer to some trasnitional hieroglyphic/demotic form. pc</ins></div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Proper_Lojban_Orthography&diff=65297&oldid=prevGleki at 17:06, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:06:07Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
You expect to be able to use ''pu'' in place of ''cu'' in front of a selbri to close the front sumti - right? Wrong - if it's an abstraction!<br />
<br />
''lenu mi klama pu vajni'' is a sumti with parse:<br />
<br />
''({le < [[jbocre: nu (mi {klama < [jbocre: pu KU|pu KU]] VAU>}) KEI] vajni> KU} VAU)''<br />
<br />
I don't. Sounds like someone mislearned that tenses mark the start of selbri.<br />
<br />
To be fair, the book says (10.1, p. 216) ''The placement of a tense construct within a Lojban bridi is easy: right before the selbri. It goes immediately after the "cu", '''and can in fact always replace the "cu"'''.'' Of course, it then goes on to say ''(although in very complex sentences the rules for eliding terminators may be changed as a result).''</div>Gleki