LLG 2001 Annual Meeting Minutes: Difference between revisions

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[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
#'''du'u''', '''ka''' and '''si'o''' are logically identical. They all express '''n'''-adic relations, where '''n''' is the number of overt or covert '''ce'u''' within the abstraction. A proposition is a 0-adic relation. A property is a 1-adic relation.
#The difference between '''du'u''', '''ka''' and '''si'o''' is purely grammatical, and concerns the interpretation of elided sumti.
#In '''du'u''' abstractions, all elided sumti are interpreted as '''zo'e'''.
#In '''ka''' abstractions that contain one or more overt '''ce'u''', all elided sumti are interpreted as '''zo'e'''.
#In '''ka''' abstractions that contain no overt '''ce'u''', the default interpretation is that exactly one elided sumti is interpreted as '''ce'u''' and the rest are interpreted as '''zo'e'''. If contextual factors are sufficiently strong, the default can be overridden, and more than one elided sumti is interpreted as '''ce'u''' according to the demands of the discourse context.
* Original version: In '''ka''' abstractions that contain no overt '''ce'u''', exactly one elided sumti is interpreted as '''ce'u''' and the rest are interpreted as '''zo'e'''.
#In a '''ka''' abstraction in which an elided sumti is interpreted as ''' ce'u''', the sumti is normally the leftmost empty sumti, unless this default is overridden by strong contextual factors.
#In '''si'o''' abstractions, all elided sumti are interpreted as '''ce'u'''.


==  Minutes of the 2001 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. ==
*[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
 
*:With the modification proposed on the list by xorxes (5: at least one ''ce'u'', except where context strongly indicates more than one, as in ''simxu''), I think this is eminently sensible, and does not break existing usage.
The thirteenth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was called to order on July 29, 2001 at 11:17 AM EDT.
**[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
 
**:It arguably even makes sense of [[jbocre: Michael Helsem|Michael's]] use of ''si'o''. That is, it makes formerly iffy usage valid.
Non-members in attendance at the annual meeting were:
**[[User:John Clifford|pc]]:
 
**:But is an egregious waste of cmavo space for no purpose whatsoeverAssuming for the nonce that '''ce'u''' is actually meant to be used in the way typically done here (the list calls it a pseudo-quantifier -- whatever that means -- not a bound variable, after all), then the only logical way to deal with it is to make it everywhere explicit and then fudge back as context allows, not to have a passle of rules using up cmavo like peanuts at a beer party.
* Robin Powell  voted in as member during the meeting
**:So, I suggest that '''du'u''' is the standrad form for propositions and thus putting '''ce'u''' in it creates properties and relation, depending on how many you put in'''ka''' on the other hand is the the qualitative version of '''ni''', giving properties of the enclosed event (another way to do adverbs, if you will).  '''si'o''' seems to be about mental or mentalistic critters, complete thoughts or ideals or the corresponding partials related to properties and relationsOn Zipfean ground, '''ka''' and '''du'u''' might well be interchanged, though that might affect some mnemonics.
*  Charles Hope (Xod)  voted in as member during the meeting
**[[User:xod|xod]]:
 
**:This scheme is logically consistent but breaks existing usage too much to get adopted now.
*  Olivia
----
 
*[[User:xod|xod]]:
Roll call was taken of the members.
*:There are problems with number five. First, it breaks existing usage (which is unfixably broken) because the Book itself shows that ka without ce'u could mean  there is one implicit ce'u, '''or alternatively''' that there is no ce'u at all and the intended relationship is an abstraction of a quality fulfilled by a given sumti (not "height", but "my cat's height"), which should really be expressed using jei, not ka. Agreeing upon an accepted tradition for the interpretation of ka without ce'u will only encourage people to perform that abomination. Instead, we should do what we can to discourage it and advise people to be explicit.
 
*:When it was discussed in that massive Lojban list thread, (5) seemed to be the best compromise between past usage, current usage, and the need to have something that wouldn't break down too badly. Purists can avoid ''ka'' altogether; [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] no longer use it.
Members attending (13) were:
----
 
*[[User:xod|xod]]:
*  John Cowan
*:And secondly, look how ni has been forgotten. It's almost completely neglected in the above discussion because it's redundant, only providing a quantitative mirror for ka. Well, sufficiently determined nerds like us can and usually do think of qualities as quantities, so we really don't need both.
*  John Hodges
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
 
*:I've just thrice rewritten a paragraph trying to work out what you're trying to say, but I give up. Can you explain? Maybe move explanation to a separate wiki page & link to it from here?
*  Shawn Lasseter
*  Nora LeChevalier
 
*  Robert (Bob) LeChevalier
*  Keith Lynch
 
*  Alex (Alexandra) Miles-Lasseter
*  Nick Nicholas
 
*  Paul Francis OSullivan
*  Mark Shoulson
 
*  David Twery
*  Tommy Whitlock
 
*  David Crowell
 
Members "present" (12) by proxy:
 
*  Athelstan proxy to Nora LeChevalier, with instructions
*  Dave Barton proxy to Bob LeChevalier
 
* Gary Burgess  proxy to Bob LeChevalier
* John Clifford proxy to Nora LeChevalier
 
*  Ivan Derzhanski proxy to Mark Shoulson
*  Arnt Johansen proxy to Charles Hope (Xod)
 
*  Jorge Llambias proxy to Bob LeChevalier
*  And Rosta proxy to John Cowan
 
*  Yevgeny Sklyanin proxy to Bob LeChevalier
*  Robin Turner proxy to Bob LeChevalier
 
*  Veijo Vilva proxy to Bob LeChevalier
*  David Young proxy to Nora LeChevalier
 
Members not in attendance (5) were:
 
*  Jake Berglund  [[jbocre: Note from Secretary: Resignation received after the meeting]]
* Colin Fine [[jbocre: Note from Secretary: Resignation, sent before meeting, was received after meeting.]]
 
*  Ethan Fremen
*  Guy Garnett
 
*  Karen Stein
 
Roll call of members: Taken.
 
Chair turned over to Vice President, John Cowan.
 
No proper notice of meeting by Secretary/Treasurer was given (per Article 3, Section 4 of the Bylaws); therefore no bylaw amendments may be made.
 
Reading of the Minutes: Minutes from last meeting were read and accepted.
 
Report of officers: Secretary/Treasurer, by President:
 
*  Organization delinquent 6-7 quarters in state sales tax
* Book orders almost caught up
 
* Other orders not done
*  Estimated 5-6 thousand in liability for balances.
 
*  Expenses: CAIS (internet site) account $800 per year (although we are investigating CAIS claim we didnt pay last year)
*  Visa/Mastercard/Amex service $30 per month, plus extra charges
 
*  about $1500 income, $1500 expense
*  Income: net negative
 
* $3000 left on book loan
*  $2600 in bank
 
* Book Sales total: 360 (about 40 since last year)
 
Report of officers - President:
 
*  Printer settlement money received and deposited. About 6 bad books sent out since. Recipients have usually accepted PDF file of bad pages.
* Yevgeny Sklyanin translating gismu into Russian. Also maintaining index of things happening on the website.
 
*  Production of Dictionary: advanced slightly. Nick Nicholas has keyworded a large list of used lujvo. Jay Kominek has an archive site for searching text for the usage and has set up a website supporting dictionary updating by the group.
*  Nick took on the Level 0 book task. He has a draft level zero book, and a draft textbook/primer as an expansion of Robin Turners work (although its not to be the baseline textbook, its more like a Teach Yourself book); both are being reviewed.
 
*  On Nicks efforts, Bob commented that we cannot publish 2 books now due to monetary considerations.
*  Robin Powell and Jay Kominek have each set up links to other sites, including Lojban Wiki (which facilitates people working together on a project).
 
*  A translation of Alice in Wonderland is nearly complete. This project has used CVS (a configuration management tool) to keep track of and help resolve problems due to changes by multiple people on a project. Nick is also using it for his books.
* Bjrn Gohla has begun translating the draft level 0 book into German.
 
* A Lojban phrasebook is being compiled (primarily by Pierre Abbat).
*  Pierre Abbat and others are also working on a bible translation from the original languages.
 
* The Imeme offer (from Ethan Fremen and Jake Berglund) came to naught; the Board was not satisfied.
*  Robin Powell is committing to take over as administrator for the web-site; wed been interested in looking at another option than CAIS.
 
*  We are also interested in other options for credit card processing. Perhaps Pay Pal online credit or Verisign.
*  Recognition for Charles Hope (Xod) as keeping promise of speaking Lojban for the entire LogFest.
 
Report of Committees:
 
*  Level 0 package committee (1998,99: John Cowan, chairman; David Twery; Tommy Whitlock; Bob LeChevalier): No report.
*  Internet site committee (1999: David Twery, Chairman; Shawn Lasseter; Nick Nicholas): No report.
 
* Finance (aka Poverty) Committee: No report.
*  On-line ordering (1997: Mark Shoulson, chairman): No report.
 
*  WorldCon committee (1998: Keith Lynch, chairman; David Bowen; Bob LeChevalier): No report.
*  Meeting notice (1994: Bob LeChevalier and John Cowan): No report.
 
*  Grant proposal: (1996: Dave Barton, chairman; Dave Twery; and Bob LeChevalier): No report.
*  Streamlining meeting procedures (1999: John Cowan, chairman): No report.
 
Consideration of new members or removal of old members:
 
*  MOVED: To send notice to Colin and Karen that if they do not participate by presence or proxy at the next annual meeting they will be terminated with no further vote needed.
*  Motion then divided into 2 parts, one for each person:
 
*  1.      Notice to Karen : PASSED.
*  2.      Notice to Colin : PASSED.
 
*  MOVED: To offer membership to Charles Hope (Xod). : PASSED.
 
Election of Board of Directors:
 
*  Current Board includes John Cowan, Shawn Lasseter, Bob LeChevalier, Nora LeChevalier, Alex Miles-Lasseter and David Twery and John Clifford. Maximum of 7 allowed.
* Alex wishes to step down from Board.
 
*  MOVED: To elect John Clifford, John Cowan, Shawn Lasseter, Bob LeChevalier, Nora LeChevalier : PASSED as AMENDED.
*  FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: Offer Board membership to Nick Nichols and Charles Hope (Xod) as well : ACCEPTED.
 
* MOVED: To thank the departing Board members for their participation: PASSED by acclamation.
 
Old/Unfinished Business:
 
*  MOVED: To rescind approval in principle on the Imeme offer. : PASSED.
 
New Business:
 
* MOVED: To use these flyers [[jbocre: flyers created during Logfest exhibited|flyers created during Logfest exhibited]] for distribution at World Con; Board to work out details : PASSED.
* MOVED: To make the flyers available, to any interested party attending a Science Fiction or related convention, for distribution, at the discretion of the Board : PASSED as AMENDED.
 
*  FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: Also make available on Lojban web-site for people to distribute without Board approval - ACCEPTED.
* MOVED: To reduce dependence on the Internet : FAILED.
 
* There was discussion on the pros and cons of Internet involvement here. Athelstans position that the Internet is de-humanizing was noted. Other members disagreed, saying that increased communication can be humanizing. There was general consensus that we need to pay more attention to Lojbanists not on the Internet, however.
*  MOVED: That the mailing list be compiled with all deliberate speed, and then notice sent to all members announcing the book(s) and level of activity in advance of any LK (the Lojbo Karni newsletter) : PASSED.
 
* Updated report on book-writing (Level 0 and Textbook lessons) by Nick:
 
 
 
Lessons (15) completed, reviewed by some of the on-line community, then revised; there are still comments pending. More examples and exercises added. There is some concern about the level that the book is aimed at. Comes to 280 pages, including vocabulary but not index nor additional exercises.
 
 
 
Level 0 package, as currently designed, contains:
 
 
 
*  What is Lojban / la lojban mo
 
 
 
*  Overview
 
 
 
*  Diagrammed Summary
 
 
 
*  Linguistic Issues (mostly response to Zwickys questions)
 
 
 
*  4 glossed texts
 
 
 
Does not contain mini-lesson nor FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) sections.
 
 
 
* MOVED: For informal consideration : PASSED.
*  Discussion on proposed content for Level 0 package/book ensued, resulting in possibility of Bob combining the Overview, the Zwicky answers and an essay on Lojban and linguistics research (previously written by Bob) into one section.
 
*  MOVED: To make clear that Nick has full editorial discretion over the content of books on which hes working; the Board can then decide whether to take on the actual publication as an LLG book. : PASSED.
*  MOVED: To have an e-mail mailing list for Lojban announcements (low volume); to also look into other mailing lists (membership, Board) : PASSED.
 
*  Discussion here on tracking Grammar change proposals. Proposal was to formalize the process that John Clifford has been doing with the 'record' discussions, with rigid format record with a place for no-approval suggestions. It was brought up that sometimes discussions start up on points that have previously been well-discussed and decided on, but that those involved in the current discussions did not see.
*  MOVED: That the Board will institute some system, on and off the internet, of permanently documenting discussion, decisions, and proposals for change, so that they are available to interested parties without the need to rediscuss. : PASSED.
 
* MOVED: That LLG ask John Clifford to write a draft work dealing with 'Lojban and logic', in the sense of addressing problems of Lojban (things not decided, or things not appropriate level for the Reference Grammar) at a level not tutorial, and which fills in gaps in the Reference Grammar that havent been defined. : PASSED.
* This followed discussion on a book on 'Lojban and Logic', and disagreement over what this might mean.
 
*  During this discussion, Mark Shoulson leaves, proxy to Nick for himself and Ivan.
*  Also, Shawn leaves, proxy to Alex.
 
*  MOVED: That a complete logical specification of the language be written and submitted to the Board : WITHDRAWN.
*  Bob LeChevalier wants it noted that the Baseline has begun on some parts of the language, but that the 5-years of the complete baseline does not begin until we have the real Dictionary, real Textbook and Reference Grammar (unless the organization votes otherwise).
 
* MOVED: To thank Nick for his work on the level 0 package book and the lesson revisions : PASSED.
* Sense of organization was that we might want to consider bundling Nicks work into the real Textbook.
 
*  Action item proposed by Bob: Add to the Web page our approval (already voted on last meeting) of Lojban as a pivot language for European patent system. Charles Hope (Xod) and Robin agreed to do this.
*  MOVED: To thank Robin Turner for his work on the lessons. : PASSED.
 
*  MOVED: To adjourn meeting. - PASSED.
 
The 13th Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was adjourned at approximately 2:45 PM EDT.
 
I certify that the above motions were presented to all members present for discussion and approval, and that all motions were approved as noted. I further certify that these minutes are an accurate representation of the thirteenth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc.
 
Nora LeChevalier
 
Secretary/Treasurer

Revision as of 06:48, 13 December 2013

And Rosta:

  1. du'u, ka and si'o are logically identical. They all express n-adic relations, where n is the number of overt or covert ce'u within the abstraction. A proposition is a 0-adic relation. A property is a 1-adic relation.
  2. The difference between du'u, ka and si'o is purely grammatical, and concerns the interpretation of elided sumti.
  3. In du'u abstractions, all elided sumti are interpreted as zo'e.
  4. In ka abstractions that contain one or more overt ce'u, all elided sumti are interpreted as zo'e.
  5. In ka abstractions that contain no overt ce'u, the default interpretation is that exactly one elided sumti is interpreted as ce'u and the rest are interpreted as zo'e. If contextual factors are sufficiently strong, the default can be overridden, and more than one elided sumti is interpreted as ce'u according to the demands of the discourse context.
  • Original version: In ka abstractions that contain no overt ce'u, exactly one elided sumti is interpreted as ce'u and the rest are interpreted as zo'e.
  1. In a ka abstraction in which an elided sumti is interpreted as ce'u, the sumti is normally the leftmost empty sumti, unless this default is overridden by strong contextual factors.
  2. In si'o abstractions, all elided sumti are interpreted as ce'u.
  • nitcion:
    With the modification proposed on the list by xorxes (5: at least one ce'u, except where context strongly indicates more than one, as in simxu), I think this is eminently sensible, and does not break existing usage.
    • And Rosta:
      It arguably even makes sense of Michael's use of si'o. That is, it makes formerly iffy usage valid.
    • pc:
      But is an egregious waste of cmavo space for no purpose whatsoever. Assuming for the nonce that ce'u is actually meant to be used in the way typically done here (the list calls it a pseudo-quantifier -- whatever that means -- not a bound variable, after all), then the only logical way to deal with it is to make it everywhere explicit and then fudge back as context allows, not to have a passle of rules using up cmavo like peanuts at a beer party.
      So, I suggest that du'u is the standrad form for propositions and thus putting ce'u in it creates properties and relation, depending on how many you put in. ka on the other hand is the the qualitative version of ni, giving properties of the enclosed event (another way to do adverbs, if you will). si'o seems to be about mental or mentalistic critters, complete thoughts or ideals or the corresponding partials related to properties and relations. On Zipfean ground, ka and du'u might well be interchanged, though that might affect some mnemonics.
    • xod:
      This scheme is logically consistent but breaks existing usage too much to get adopted now.

  • xod:
    There are problems with number five. First, it breaks existing usage (which is unfixably broken) because the Book itself shows that ka without ce'u could mean there is one implicit ce'u, or alternatively that there is no ce'u at all and the intended relationship is an abstraction of a quality fulfilled by a given sumti (not "height", but "my cat's height"), which should really be expressed using jei, not ka. Agreeing upon an accepted tradition for the interpretation of ka without ce'u will only encourage people to perform that abomination. Instead, we should do what we can to discourage it and advise people to be explicit.
    When it was discussed in that massive Lojban list thread, (5) seemed to be the best compromise between past usage, current usage, and the need to have something that wouldn't break down too badly. Purists can avoid ka altogether; And Rosta no longer use it.

  • xod:
    And secondly, look how ni has been forgotten. It's almost completely neglected in the above discussion because it's redundant, only providing a quantitative mirror for ka. Well, sufficiently determined nerds like us can and usually do think of qualities as quantities, so we really don't need both.
  • And Rosta:
    I've just thrice rewritten a paragraph trying to work out what you're trying to say, but I give up. Can you explain? Maybe move explanation to a separate wiki page & link to it from here?