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Further discussion of ''ka'e nai'' is to be found under ''[[jbocre: bi'ai|bi'ai]]''.
==  Minutes of the 2000 Annual Meeting of the Members of [[The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]], Inc. ==


----
The twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of [[The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]], Inc. was called to order on August 6, 2000 at 11:58 AM EDT.


''ka'enai'' and ''ca'anai'' are two words which sound perfectly reasonable, are probably used on numerous occasions, and anyone could tell you what they mean - yet they are not grammatical. For some reason, CAhA is a separate selma'o from PU and ZAhO and all the other numerous tense selma'o, and unlike all of them, CAhA does not allow ''nai'' to be attached. You need to put ''na'e'' before the CAhA word instead.
Shawn Lasseter was appointed Sergeant-at-Arms to gather/inform members of beginning of meeting.


I have yet to see any reason given for this. ''So do I - could this be explained by LLG??? It's things like that causing natlang frustration, and even more than natlangs!''
Non-members in attendance at the annual meeting were:


* Cowan explained this in [http://www.lojban.org/lists/lojban-list/msg02131.html].  There's a good reason for this not being allowed.  -mi'e [[jbocre: .djorden.|.djorden.]]
* Ethan Fremen voted in as member during the meeting
* It's not clear to me that he's explaining that there's a good reason. He's explaining that the state of ''nai'' is pretty messy and that *CAhA+NAI is not a solitary arbitrary exception. If there's a good reason for the status quo, perhaps you could spell it out a bit more clearly? After all, ''ka'enai'' is becoming something of a testcase-cum-causecelebre.
* Jake Berglund voted in as member during the meeting


** Did you read what he said?  The nai on pu and fa'a were left because it had been that way, and was better to leave it.  The CAhA stuff was new, and thus could be shielded from that crap.  His (and my) preference would be to eliminate PU+NAI and FAhA+NAI rather than adding CAHA+NAI.  Furthermore, if it is 'the same as tenses' (which it isn't -- and note that by 'tenses' they actually mean PU and FAhA, ignoring the multitude of other tense cmavo for which NAI is disallowed) as is claimed by the proponents of ka'enai, it would be contradictory negation and not the scalar/polar negation we see when people (ab)use it.  I, for one, can't believe this ka'enai crap has gone on for so long with people claiming there's "no reason" for it, when there clearly is (or perhaps they're just being disingenuous and actually understand and just disagree with the motivation). --mi'e [[jbocre: .djorden.|.djorden.]]
* David Crowell voted in as member during the meeting
*** My argument is that ''nai'' should be allowed to modify any word that can be modified by a UI. Selecting which words can or cannot be modified by ''nai'' is extremely arbitrary. So it is more general than that some tags can take ''nai'' and others can't. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
* [[User:xod|la xod]]


**** What kind of modification do you want?  nai means different things when applied to different words... -- mi'e [[jbocre: .djorden.|.djorden.]]
* Olivia
***** Eliminate selma'o NAI and put ''nai'' in selma'o UI. This is a simplification of the grammar: less rules to learn. ''nai'' in general converts a word into one with opposite meaning, but in some specific cases (notably logical connectives) it is related to ''na''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


****** I meant what kind of modification should the nai do ;P  Logical connectives and tenses also are contrary neg with nai; I dunno what else.
Roll call was taken of the members.
******* Well, the effect of ''nai'' on TAhEs is interesting. The official definition with PU tenses is not very useful, it should not be propagated to other words if possible. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


** Did you read what he said? (Yes of course you did. And yes of course I did.) Regarding the semantics of NAI, my impression, not based on systematic analysis, is that it doesn't consistently encode a single kind of negation; it would be interesting to see a systematic study of this. Regarding the way to undo the mess, the comment someone made below about treating it like a UI (or CAI) distributionally probably better approximates the grammar people acquire inductively. (Regarding this last point, I am about to post a new page.)
Members attending (14) were:


(''pu'i'' and ''nu'o'' are also members of CAhA, but much less used. ''na'epu'i'' is actually in the cmavo list separately, for a fairly useful concept. ''na'enu'o'' would be a bit more obscure - it would mean "no unrealized potential", meaning that, whether we have seen the subject perform this event or not, that's all he/she can do.)
* Dave Barton
* Gary Burgess


[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]
* John Hodges


----
* Shawn Lasseter
* [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]]


Usage is drifting away from baseline!
* Robert (Bob) LeChevalier
* Keith Lynch


-----
* Alex (Alexandra) Miles-Lasseter
* [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]]


Well, it has to happen. In a language where we're used to not seeing arbitrary exceptions, and those exceptions that do exist tend to have a logically justifiable reason, CAhANAI compounds should naturally arise.
* Paul Francis O'Sullivan
* [[User:Mark Shoulson|Mark Shoulson]]


This creates a trickier situation than simply changes in usage (the "ce'u" ordeal) and experimental [[jbocre: experimental c|cmavo]]/[[jbocre: experimental g|gismu]]/[[jbocre: experimental r|rafsi]], though. If everyone started saying ''ka'enai'', shouldn't a parser (not the official parser, but certainly something like jbofi'e) parse it? However, to do so would require modifying a rule in the [[jbocre: YACC|YACC]] grammar, one part of the baseline which has been sacred.
* David Twery
* Tommy Whitlock


Though I respect the baseline, and will not use things like ''ka'enai'' in Flatland, I might just start saying ''ka'enai'' in ordinary usage and see what happens.
Members "present" (5) by proxy:


[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
* Athelstan proxy to [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]], with instructions to abstain on all votes
* [[User:John Clifford|John Clifford]] proxy to [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]]


----
* Guy Garnett proxy to [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]]
* [[User:xorxes|Jorge Llambias]] proxy to [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]


''nai'' should have the same grammar as ''[[jbocre: UI|UI]]''. This will eventually be necessary for [[jbocre: Three-value logic|Three-value logic]].
* Veijo Vilva proxy to [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]


----
Members not in attendance (3) were:


[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]] have always used ka'enai, and this is a dumb exception that, inasmuch as there is any significance to "usage decides", was decided against 10 years ago. I hold with Rob's position.
* Karen Stein
* Colin Fine


----
* David Young


(One can consider ''ka'enai'' the "ain't" of Lojban...)
No proper notice of meeting by Secretary/Treasurer was given (per Article 3, Section 4 of the Bylaws)., therefore no bylaw amendments may be made.
 
Reading of the Minutes:
 
* MOVED: To waive reading of minutes. - PASSED.
 
Report of officers: Secretary/Treasurer, by President:
 
Organization delinquent 2 quarters in state sales tax ($30 penalty)
 
Book orders caught up
 
Other orders not done
 
Estimated 5-6 thousand in liability for balances.
 
Expenses:
 
* CAIS (internet site) account $800 per year
* Phone $30-35 per month
 
* Visa/Mastercard/Amex service $30 per month, plus extra charges
* $1550 so far
 
* Income: net negative
 
** Repaid $2000 of book loan (to LeChevalier balance)
** $3000 left on book loan
 
** $2000 in bank
 
Book Sales: 322
 
Report of officers - President:
 
Settled with printer:  Asked $4400, settled with offer of $2400.
 
* Possible options for handling of people with bad books:
* PDF of book for download
 
* PDF of bad page
* Send good book
 
There was a suggestion that we get the bad book back so we can insert a print of the good page and use it to send to those of limited funds who wanted the book.
 
Commendation to Yvgeny Sklyanin for building a net community in Russia, including translating stuff into Russian and setting up a Russian language web site.  (Here it was also noted that [[x|xod]] had set up a lojban web ring and is encouraging us to get the lojban web page set up).
 
Production of [[Mini-D|Dictionary]]:  not advanced.
 
Note that World Con is in Philadelphia next year.
 
Project on new words (lujvo): We would like to find a way to get people to create/check even just the English keywords for the words on the list of new words (5000-10000).
 
Report of Committees:
 
* Level 0 package committee (1998,99: [[John Cowan|John Cowan]], chairman; David Twery; Tommy Whitlock; [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]):Nothing done.Internet site committee (1999: David Twery, Chairman; Shawn Lasseter; [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]]):Nothing done.
* Finance (aka Poverty) Committee:  Nothing done because no extra moneys. John Hodges and [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] have, separate from this committee, have 5-6 copies reserved for indigent.
 
* On-line ordering (1997: [[User:Mark Shoulson|Mark Shoulson]], chairman):no change reported.
* WorldCon committee (1998: Keith Lynch, chairman; David Bowen; [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]):nothing to report.Meeting notice (1994: [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] and [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]):no report.
 
*Grant proposal: (1996: Dave Barton, chairman; Dave Twery; and [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]):no report.Streamlining meeting procedures (1999: [[John Cowan|John Cowan]], chairman):no report.
 
Consideration of new members or removal of old members:
 
Discussion: concern about too much emphasis given to the local people who can come to Logfest, and not enough consideration of foreign contributors.  Led to discussion of what it means to be a member and how it would affect ability to do bylaw amendments and other business at the annual meeting.
 
* MOVED: That all 3 prospective members (Ethan Fremen, Jake Berglund, David Crowell) be accepted as new members. - PASSED.
* MOVED: To offer membership to Ivan Derzhanski. - PASSED.
 
* MOVED: To offer membership to Yvgeny Sklyanin. - PASSED.
* MOVED: To offer membership to Robin Turner and [[Arnt Johansen|Arnt Johansen]]. - PASSED.
 
* MOVED:  To offer membership to [[And Rosta|And Rosta]]. - PASSED as AMENDED.
* FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: That [[John Cowan|John Cowan]] be among the drafters of the offer - ACCEPTED.
 
Election of Board of Directors:
 
Current Board includes: David Barton, [[User:John Clifford|John Clifford]], [[John Cowan|John Cowan]], [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]], [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]], Alex Miles-Lasseter, David Twery. Maximum of 7 allowed.
 
Discussion of what it is to be on the Board of Directors.
 
* MOVED: To elect [[John Cowan|John Cowan]], Shawn Lasseter, [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]], [[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]], Alex Miles-Lasseter and David Twery - PASSED as AMENDED.
* MOVED: Offer Board membership to [[User:John Clifford|John Clifford]] as well - PASSED.
 
* MOVED: To thank David Barton for his participation on the board. - PASSED.
 
Old/Unfinished Business:
 
Marketing and Promotion: Put off plan for future year [[except for World Con|except for World Con]], though Ethan had volunteered to be put in charge of contact form for Web.
 
New Business:
 
* MOVED: To recess for 20 minutes for lunch break - PASSED. (Recessed until 1:15)
 
Discussion of [[James Cook Brown|James Cook Brown]]'s death and relationship with [[The Loglan Institute|The Loglan Institute]] (TLI)
 
* MOVED: As an organization, to extend our regrets at his death, our condolences to his family, and our appreciation for his contributions to the logical language community. - PASSED
* MOVED: To adopt a formal position welcoming members of TLI or any community of logical language, and affirm a position in favor of rapprochement with TLI at such time as they ... - AMENDED
 
Discussion: This may be seen as insulting.  Discussion of importance of rapprochement, including reading from proxy comments.
 
* MOVED: To divide the motion into:
 
* Welcome members, and
* [[LLG|LLG]] position on TLI - PASSED. - PASSED
 
* MOTION: To adopt a formal position welcoming members of TLI or any community of logical language - FAILED, despite friendly amendment
* FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: "reaffirm commitment to" - ACCEPTED
 
* MOTION: To affirm a position in favor of rapprochement with TLI at such time as they... - WITHDRAWN
 
Ethan presented a proposal: an offer of real-time on-line credit-card processing and on-demand publishing (printed and sent out) as a donation.
 
Much discussion: mechanics, check processing, etc.
 
Initially to be fulfillment of orders for the book ([[The Complete Lojban Language he Complete Grammar|(The Complete Lojban Language he Complete Grammar]]), so [[LLG|LLG]] wouldn't need credit card processing.  Trail for 1 month, then talk to Board.
 
Possibly also web hosting:  $15/year to maintain name.
 
* MOVED: To accept the proposal in principal, subject to ratification by the Board of written proposal in 1 month. - PASSED as AMENDED.
* FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: "with gratitude and great thanks" - PASSED.
 
(Note: at this point, [[User:Mark Shoulson|Mark Shoulson]] leaves, proxy to Nick)
 
Talk of future ideas: Live, interactive conferencing for meetings; farming out [[Mini-D|Dictionary]] and work-proposal via web-form.
 
Hartmut Pilch asked again about his proposal for use in patents:
 
* He'd like a page on the site promoting his proposal
* He's gotten support in that France has proposed it.
 
* Bob's suggestions: a sample translation or perhaps direct support
 
(Note: at this point, Tommy Whitlock leaves, proxy to [[John Cowan|John Cowan]])
 
* MOVED: That [[LLG|LLG]] say that we fully support and encourage use of Lojban in the European patent system - PASSED.
 
Discussion of priority of resumption of [[Ju'i Lobypli|Ju'i Lobypli]] and [[Lojbo Karni|Lojbo Karni]] (JL and LK)
 
* MOVED: That priority of JL/LK resumption be moved up, subject to discretion of Board - PASSED.
 
Policy on bug in grammar (formal grammar disagrees with write-up):
 
* MOVED: That the grammar be changed to match the prose - PASSED.
* MOVED: That the question of 20001 WorldCon be delegate to the Board - PASSED.
 
* MOVED: To adjourn meeting. - PASSED.
 
The twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was adjourned at approximately 2:50 PM EDT.
 
I certify that the above motions were presented to all members present for discussion and approval, and that all motions were approved as noted. I further certify that these minutes are an accurate representation of the twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of [[The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]], Inc.
 
[[Nora LeChevalier|Nora LeChevalier]]
 
Secretary/Treasurer

Latest revision as of 08:47, 2 October 2014

Minutes of the 2000 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc.

The twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was called to order on August 6, 2000 at 11:58 AM EDT.

Shawn Lasseter was appointed Sergeant-at-Arms to gather/inform members of beginning of meeting.

Non-members in attendance at the annual meeting were:

  • Ethan Fremen voted in as member during the meeting
  • Jake Berglund voted in as member during the meeting
  • David Crowell voted in as member during the meeting
  • la xod
  • Olivia

Roll call was taken of the members.

Members attending (14) were:

  • Dave Barton
  • Gary Burgess
  • Robert (Bob) LeChevalier
  • Keith Lynch
  • David Twery
  • Tommy Whitlock

Members "present" (5) by proxy:

Members not in attendance (3) were:

  • Karen Stein
  • Colin Fine
  • David Young

No proper notice of meeting by Secretary/Treasurer was given (per Article 3, Section 4 of the Bylaws)., therefore no bylaw amendments may be made.

Reading of the Minutes:

  • MOVED: To waive reading of minutes. - PASSED.

Report of officers: Secretary/Treasurer, by President:

Organization delinquent 2 quarters in state sales tax ($30 penalty)

Book orders caught up

Other orders not done

Estimated 5-6 thousand in liability for balances.

Expenses:

  • CAIS (internet site) account $800 per year
  • Phone $30-35 per month
  • Visa/Mastercard/Amex service $30 per month, plus extra charges
  • $1550 so far
  • Income: net negative
    • Repaid $2000 of book loan (to LeChevalier balance)
    • $3000 left on book loan
    • $2000 in bank

Book Sales: 322

Report of officers - President:

Settled with printer: Asked $4400, settled with offer of $2400.

  • Possible options for handling of people with bad books:
  • PDF of book for download
  • PDF of bad page
  • Send good book

There was a suggestion that we get the bad book back so we can insert a print of the good page and use it to send to those of limited funds who wanted the book.

Commendation to Yvgeny Sklyanin for building a net community in Russia, including translating stuff into Russian and setting up a Russian language web site. (Here it was also noted that xod had set up a lojban web ring and is encouraging us to get the lojban web page set up).

Production of Dictionary: not advanced.

Note that World Con is in Philadelphia next year.

Project on new words (lujvo): We would like to find a way to get people to create/check even just the English keywords for the words on the list of new words (5000-10000).

Report of Committees:

  • Level 0 package committee (1998,99: John Cowan, chairman; David Twery; Tommy Whitlock; Bob LeChevalier):Nothing done.Internet site committee (1999: David Twery, Chairman; Shawn Lasseter; Nick Nicholas):Nothing done.
  • Finance (aka Poverty) Committee: Nothing done because no extra moneys. John Hodges and Bob LeChevalier have, separate from this committee, have 5-6 copies reserved for indigent.
  • Grant proposal: (1996: Dave Barton, chairman; Dave Twery; and Bob LeChevalier):no report.Streamlining meeting procedures (1999: John Cowan, chairman):no report.

Consideration of new members or removal of old members:

Discussion: concern about too much emphasis given to the local people who can come to Logfest, and not enough consideration of foreign contributors. Led to discussion of what it means to be a member and how it would affect ability to do bylaw amendments and other business at the annual meeting.

  • MOVED: That all 3 prospective members (Ethan Fremen, Jake Berglund, David Crowell) be accepted as new members. - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To offer membership to Ivan Derzhanski. - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To offer membership to Yvgeny Sklyanin. - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To offer membership to Robin Turner and Arnt Johansen. - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To offer membership to And Rosta. - PASSED as AMENDED.
  • FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: That John Cowan be among the drafters of the offer - ACCEPTED.

Election of Board of Directors:

Current Board includes: David Barton, John Clifford, John Cowan, Bob LeChevalier, Nora LeChevalier, Alex Miles-Lasseter, David Twery. Maximum of 7 allowed.

Discussion of what it is to be on the Board of Directors.

  • MOVED: To thank David Barton for his participation on the board. - PASSED.

Old/Unfinished Business:

Marketing and Promotion: Put off plan for future year except for World Con, though Ethan had volunteered to be put in charge of contact form for Web.

New Business:

  • MOVED: To recess for 20 minutes for lunch break - PASSED. (Recessed until 1:15)

Discussion of James Cook Brown's death and relationship with The Loglan Institute (TLI)

  • MOVED: As an organization, to extend our regrets at his death, our condolences to his family, and our appreciation for his contributions to the logical language community. - PASSED
  • MOVED: To adopt a formal position welcoming members of TLI or any community of logical language, and affirm a position in favor of rapprochement with TLI at such time as they ... - AMENDED

Discussion: This may be seen as insulting. Discussion of importance of rapprochement, including reading from proxy comments.

  • MOVED: To divide the motion into:
  • Welcome members, and
  • LLG position on TLI - PASSED. - PASSED
  • MOTION: To adopt a formal position welcoming members of TLI or any community of logical language - FAILED, despite friendly amendment
  • FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: "reaffirm commitment to" - ACCEPTED
  • MOTION: To affirm a position in favor of rapprochement with TLI at such time as they... - WITHDRAWN

Ethan presented a proposal: an offer of real-time on-line credit-card processing and on-demand publishing (printed and sent out) as a donation.

Much discussion: mechanics, check processing, etc.

Initially to be fulfillment of orders for the book ((The Complete Lojban Language he Complete Grammar), so LLG wouldn't need credit card processing. Trail for 1 month, then talk to Board.

Possibly also web hosting: $15/year to maintain name.

  • MOVED: To accept the proposal in principal, subject to ratification by the Board of written proposal in 1 month. - PASSED as AMENDED.
  • FRIENDLY AMENDMENT: "with gratitude and great thanks" - PASSED.

(Note: at this point, Mark Shoulson leaves, proxy to Nick)

Talk of future ideas: Live, interactive conferencing for meetings; farming out Dictionary and work-proposal via web-form.

Hartmut Pilch asked again about his proposal for use in patents:

  • He'd like a page on the site promoting his proposal
  • He's gotten support in that France has proposed it.
  • Bob's suggestions: a sample translation or perhaps direct support

(Note: at this point, Tommy Whitlock leaves, proxy to John Cowan)

  • MOVED: That LLG say that we fully support and encourage use of Lojban in the European patent system - PASSED.

Discussion of priority of resumption of Ju'i Lobypli and Lojbo Karni (JL and LK)

  • MOVED: That priority of JL/LK resumption be moved up, subject to discretion of Board - PASSED.

Policy on bug in grammar (formal grammar disagrees with write-up):

  • MOVED: That the grammar be changed to match the prose - PASSED.
  • MOVED: That the question of 20001 WorldCon be delegate to the Board - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To adjourn meeting. - PASSED.

The twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was adjourned at approximately 2:50 PM EDT.

I certify that the above motions were presented to all members present for discussion and approval, and that all motions were approved as noted. I further certify that these minutes are an accurate representation of the twelfth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc.

Nora LeChevalier

Secretary/Treasurer

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