How to say it in Lojban: Difference between revisions

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Of course, {''me''} ''zoisy. ... .sy.'' is still possible, or ''zoi .esperanton. ... .esperanton.'' (if "esperanton" doesn't appear in the text), or ''zoi spero. ... .spero.''
Some concepts are harder to express in Lojban than others... These are the fruits of sometimes extremely lengthy discussions, but are by no means to be regarded as the last word, in some cases!


But those don't mean the right things: without ''me'', they just refer to those particular Esperanto ''texts''; with ''me'', they say that something is an instance (token) of that particular Esperanto text.
Also see [[jbocre: is this correct|is this correct]]?


''IMHO, the notion of a mechanism '''within''' the grammar of a language for language shifting is a silly one. --[[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]]''
See also [[jbocre: what does it mean?]] for problems going the other way.


(It's obvious you never lived in a place where Spanglish occurs...)
See [[jbocre: Simple Phrases|Simple Phrases]] for a small phrase book.


* Spanglish tends to consist of English words forced into the spanish phonology and used in spanish. It is really not a whole lot different than, for instance, using lojban with [[jbocre: type 4 fu'ivla]] where there is a simple tanru availible. I have not heard much spanglish, but my sense is that it is similar also to what I know of the language in Kazakhstan - last year my family hosted an exchange student from there who said that since everyone spoke fluent Russian and Kazakh, they spoke Kazakh with a LOT of russian words mixed in. Spanglish is NOT a natural language with a shift built into the grammar, it is a pidgin (in the non-demeaning sense of the word), one which it would not surprise me to see one day replacing both English and Spanish in the United States. - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
==== Grammar ====


** Codeswitching (which is what Esperanto-shift is advocating, if I am making sense of this proposal) is nothing like Kazakh with Russian words. We're talking the equivalent of Kazakh with entire Russian phrases, and no necessary assimilation at all. There are two autonomous linguistic systems being alternated between in code-switching, not a mixture of the two. The real Lojban analogue to code-switching is not the occasional fu'ivla, but entire embedded phrases of English --- things like ''mi djuno ledu'u '''I was going to come over tonight''' gi'e ku'i na ka'e go'i''; and this is advocating using a cmavo to signal this. Right? Because if this was just the occasional fu'ivla, we already have mechanisms for that. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
* [[jbocre: Do you want coffee or tea?]]
* [[jbocre: if|if]] --- and, related, [[jbocre: da'i|da'i]] and [[jbocre: conditional|conditional]]


No fair. Natural language codeswitching certainly doesn't use grammar to signal the switch.
* [[jbocre: unless|unless]]
* [[jbocre: only|only]]


* Exactly.  If grammatically controlled at all (and I think it is) it's controlled by a metagrammar outside both natlang grammars, with rules like "Don't switch within tightly bound constructs" and "Switch only where the two language grammars are alignable (thus no switch between English preposed adjective and Spanish noun, nor between English noun and postposed Spanish adjective)."
* [[jbocre: The 17 tallest men]]
* [[jbocre: I'm stronger than last year|I'm stronger than last year]]


(And being himself bilingual, I'm sure John knows full well what codeswitching is.)
* [[jbocre: How old are you?]]
* [[jbocre: Frank likes Betty more than Mary|Frank likes Betty more than Mary]]


* Who, me bilingual?  Not at all. I decided to learn Lojban many years ago to escape monolingualism -- hasn't exactly worked yet.  --[[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]]
* [[jbocre: I like you being beaten by me|I like you being beaten by me]]
* [[jbocre: A pound was five dollars|A pound was five dollars]]


If you're speaking grammatically correct, computer-parsed Lojban, you have no need to switch out of Lojban with anything but the generic foreign-language switches anyway. If you're going to ''galfi le bangu poi do pilno ku'o ca'o lenu tavla'', why on earth legitimate it with a novel, explicit grammatical mechanism? Why on earth isn't ''zoi'' at the start of a new utterance enough? What next, a cmavo to signal up-coming coughs? -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
* [[jbocre: Letters as themselves|Letters as themselves]]
* [[Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned|Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned]]


* Given the smoke level here in Manhattan these days, we may need one.  :-)
* [[jbocre: Each of us must bring their own toothbrush|Each of us must bring their own toothbrush]]
** Smoke level back to normal.
* [[jbocre: Quotes without a speaker specified|Quotes without a speaker specified]]


*** Is that any better?
* [[jbocre: thank you very much|thank you very much]] ''as distinct from just thank you''
* If we don't make such a cmavo, they could be mistaken for a name - adding a sumti (la xux.) in the middle and messing up the whole bridi
* [[jbocre: Can't we all just get along?]]


**I'm not sure a new cmavo would actually be required here. The way to cough grammatically would be: ''mi klama to'i zoi ke ''<actual cough here>'' ke toi le zarci''  Should it be necessary to disambiguate (in a context where for example the cough might be taken for a sneeze) you can simply add a ''noi mi kafke ke'a'' in the appropriate place.
* [[jbocre: We can build a church or a school|We can build a church or a school]]
** .ue vi le jbonai po'o fasnu...
* [[jbocre: the World|the World]] (as a Capitalized Abstraction)


* Um, we already have such a cmavo: '''.y.'''  It is known not to be restricted to exactly that sound.
* [[jbocre: Go outside|Go outside]]
* [[jbocre: My mother's height|My mother's height]]


----
* [[jbocre: Guns don't kill people; People do]]
* [[jbocre: So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.|So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.]]


(My point about grammatically signalling codeswitching in Lojban is, we are explicit about everything else metalinguistic, why not this?)
* [[jbocre: than|than]]
* [[jbocre: Should|Should]] without using nitcu or .ei
 
* [[jbocre: yet and already|yet and already]] problem
* [[jbocre: you get what you pay for|you get what you pay for]]
 
* [[jbocre: email copies appreciated, since I read the digest|email copies appreciated, since I read the digest]]
* [[jbocre: I know how many cows are here|I know how many cows are here]]
 
* [[jbocre: a lot of water|a lot of water]]
* [[jbocre: describe human motion|describe human motion]]
 
* [[jbocre: Again: ''only'']]
* [[jbocre: facing the forest|facing the forest]]
 
* [[jbocre: I being this individual speaker|I being this individual speaker]]
* "I would have killed the cat" [[jbocre: conditional|conditional]]
 
* [[jbocre: free tmobile cell phones|free tmobile cell phones]]
* [[jbocre: iankis he Yankees|iankis he Yankees]]
 
* [[jbocre: This has not been a busy day|This has not been a busy day]]
* [[jbocre: It's times like these that...|It's times like these that...]]
 
* [[jbocre: One third as much water as potatoes|One third as much water as potatoes]]
 
==== Vocabulary ====
 
'''Please''' check for existing attempts (e.g. the 1994 lujvo list, [http://www.lojban.org/files/draft-dictionary/NORALUJV.txt),] before asking here. The list shouldn\'t get too openended. Asterisked entries are in lujvo list. ''(IMHO this list is full of misleadingly'' glijbo ''derivations, which should be carefully looked up on a'' rafsi ''list before using as a plug-in English equivalent.)'' True, but my point still stands...
 
* [[jbocre: widdershins|widdershins]]
* [[jbocre: dragon|dragon]]
 
* [[jbocre: Rock music|Rock music]]
* [[Black Hole|Black Hole]]
 
* [[jbocre: justice|justice]]
* [[jbocre: game|game]]
 
* [[jbocre: mystery|mystery]]
* [[jbocre: intelligent|intelligent]]
 
* [[jbocre: phonograph|phonograph]]
* [[jbocre: square meter|square meter]]
 
* [[jbocre: logical induction and deduction|logical induction and deduction]]
* [[jbocre: Weasel|Weasel]]
 
* [[jbocre: 4-tuple]]
* [[jbocre: rehair the bow|rehair the bow]]
 
* [[jbocre: call|call]]
* [[jbocre: camera obscura|camera obscura]]
 
* [[jbocre: observative|observative]]
* [[jbocre: forensic|forensic]]
 
* [[jbocre: infrared and ultraviolet|infrared and ultraviolet]]
* [[jbocre: clever|clever]]
 
* [[jbocre: skami mrilu cmene -mail address|skami mrilu cmene -mail address]]
 
==== Common sentences ====
 
* [[jbocre: Cheers!|Cheers!]]
 
A [[jbocre: phrasebook|phrasebook]] is being created.

Revision as of 16:52, 4 November 2013

Some concepts are harder to express in Lojban than others... These are the fruits of sometimes extremely lengthy discussions, but are by no means to be regarded as the last word, in some cases!

Also see is this correct?

See also jbocre: what does it mean? for problems going the other way.

See Simple Phrases for a small phrase book.

Grammar

Vocabulary

Please check for existing attempts (e.g. the 1994 lujvo list, [1] before asking here. The list shouldn\'t get too openended. Asterisked entries are in lujvo list. (IMHO this list is full of misleadingly glijbo derivations, which should be carefully looked up on a rafsi list before using as a plug-in English equivalent.) True, but my point still stands...

Common sentences

A phrasebook is being created.

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