Difference between revisions of "How to say it in Lojban"

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* [[Which terminators are elidable?]]
 
* [[Which terminators are elidable?]]
 
* [[Do you want coffee or tea?]]
 
* [[Do you want coffee or tea?]]
* [[if|if]] --- and, related, [[da'i|da'i]] and [[conditional|conditional]]
+
* Subjunctives and conditionals
 +
** [[if|if]] --- and, related, [[da'i|da'i]] and [[conditional|conditional]]
 +
** "I would have killed the cat" [[conditional|conditional]]
 
* [[unless|unless]]
 
* [[unless|unless]]
 
* [[only|only]]
 
* [[only|only]]
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* [[Frank likes Betty more than Mary|Frank likes Betty more than Mary]]
 
* [[Frank likes Betty more than Mary|Frank likes Betty more than Mary]]
 
* [[I like you being beaten by me|I like you being beaten by me]]
 
* [[I like you being beaten by me|I like you being beaten by me]]
* [[A pound was five dollars|A pound was five dollars]]
+
* A pound was five dollars
 +
** '''lo brityrupnu be li pa pu vamji lo merkyrupnu be li mu'''
 +
*** We don't say '''mu merkyrupnu''' for ''five dollars''; that means five things (prices? costs?) which are a dollar each. How do we do it instead?
 +
**** Uh, '''lo merkyrupnu be li mu'''?
 +
***** nitcion:
 +
****** No, that doesn't work either: that is one or more things which are (cost?) five dollars each. Loglan solves this problem by a conventional hack of using the number ''5d'' to mean five dollars. This is '''malylojbo'''. The more general question is, how do you speak of measurements, abstracted from the thing being measured? The abstract notion of "5 m", as opposed to "that which is 5 m long"? Solve that, and you solve the abstract $5, as in "my bank balance is $5." For the physical currency, on the other hand, all you need is '''sicni be le merko befi li mu''' (sicni obviously being intended for banknotes as well as coins); and I don't think '''sicni befi mu meryru'u''' is unintelligible either.
 +
***** pne:
 +
****** What's the second '''be''' for in '''sicni be le merko befi li mi'''? Is the '''fi li mi''' supposed to be attached to '''merko'''? Or is it supposed to be a '''bei '''instead? '''le ka ritru'u li pa pu dunli le ka meryru'u li mu kei le ka ce'u vamji makau'''
 +
******* nitcion:
 +
******** Yeah, I was afraid the answer was '''ka'''. I certainly don't think it's '''ni'''; '''leni meryru'u li mu''' seems to be just silly. But does this work for "my bank balance is $5"? Or do I use '''vamji''' there too? '''meryru'u mumei'''? It requires a convention, but a relatively clear one, whose literal meaning is not going to be common.
 +
*** This is clearly <u>not</u> a general solution (if a solution at all), for "five feet", say, is not a set and even less so "five degrees" of temperature.
 
* [[Letters as themselves|Letters as themselves]]
 
* [[Letters as themselves|Letters as themselves]]
 
* [[Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned|Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned]]
 
* [[Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned|Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned]]
 
* [[Each of us must bring their own toothbrush|Each of us must bring their own toothbrush]]
 
* [[Each of us must bring their own toothbrush|Each of us must bring their own toothbrush]]
 
* [[Quotes without a speaker specified|Quotes without a speaker specified]]
 
* [[Quotes without a speaker specified|Quotes without a speaker specified]]
* [[thank you very much|thank you very much]] ''as distinct from just thank you''
+
* ''thank you very much'' as distinct from just ''thank you''
* [[Can't we all just get along?]]
+
** '''ki'esai''' or '''ki'ecai'''
 +
* Can't we all just get along?
 +
** '''.a'o ma'a sarxe simxu'''
 
* [[We can build a church or a school|We can build a church or a school]]
 
* [[We can build a church or a school|We can build a church or a school]]
* [[the World|the World]] (as a Capitalized Abstraction)
+
* the World (as a Capitalized Abstraction)
 +
** Depending on context, you might say: '''le terdi, le se terdi, ro se terdi'''
 +
** Other suggestions: '''munje, remna munje, cfipyboi'''
 +
** From the jvoste: '''mu'ezda, rolgu'e, rolre'azda, rolzda'''
 
* [[Go outside|Go outside]]
 
* [[Go outside|Go outside]]
 
* [[My mother's height|My mother's height]]
 
* [[My mother's height|My mother's height]]
 
* [[Guns don't kill people; People do]]
 
* [[Guns don't kill people; People do]]
* [[So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.|So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.]]
+
* So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.
 
* [[than|than]]
 
* [[than|than]]
* [[Should|Should]] without using nitcu or .ei
+
* ''Should'' without using '''nitcu''' or '''.ei'''
 +
** That's an odd requirement, a bit like asking how to say "hand" without using '''xance'''. The natural way of translating "should" is with '''ei'''.
 +
** .djorden.:
 +
*** The concept of obligation is largely different from English ''should'' in many cases. If I say "I should go to the store", or "I should eat something", it's not nearly as strong as saying "I need to eat something". It may be just as simple as using .eiru'e in those cases though...
 +
**** .kreig.daniyl.:
 +
***** But what about things <u>you</u> should do? Cross-reference: [[Rant: e'o and e'u are not commands|Rant: e.'o and e'u are not commands]]
 +
***** '''ei do zukte'''
 +
****** .kreig.:
 +
******* "I am obligated to have you do it"? '''ei''' is a feeling of obligation. You could use '''eidai''' - you feel obligated to do it - or you could/should reread [[Rant: e'o and e'u are not commands]] and realize that using an attitudinal to try to order someone to do something is just plain <u>wrong</u>. Personally, I'm for '''nitcu''', perhaps with a '''ru'e''' stuck in to indicate that you don't <u>need</u>'' ''to do it, you just <u>should</u>. But we're supposed to go without '''nitcu''', for some odd reason.
 +
******* xorxes:
 +
******** ''ei'' does not mean "I am obligated", it means "this is how I feel things should be". ''ei do zukte'' means "I feel it should be so that you do it", or simply "you should do it", which is not to say that you should feel you should do it or feel anything else. "You should do it" is about how I feel, not about how you feel. Also, "you should do it" is not really a command.
 +
********* It shouldn't be, but there are times when it is used that way. Sometimes it is also a threat, as in "Why, I oughtta...".
 +
** '''bilga'''
 
* [[yet and already|yet and already]] problem
 
* [[yet and already|yet and already]] problem
 
* [[you get what you pay for|you get what you pay for]]
 
* [[you get what you pay for|you get what you pay for]]
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* [[Again: ''only'']]
 
* [[Again: ''only'']]
 
* [[facing the forest|facing the forest]]
 
* [[facing the forest|facing the forest]]
* [[I being this individual speaker|I being this individual speaker]]
+
* I being this individual speaker
* "I would have killed the cat" [[conditional|conditional]]
 
 
* [[free tmobile cell phones|free tmobile cell phones]]
 
* [[free tmobile cell phones|free tmobile cell phones]]
* [[iankis|The Yankees]]
+
* [[.iankis.|The Yankees]]
 
* [[This has not been a busy day|This has not been a busy day]]
 
* [[This has not been a busy day|This has not been a busy day]]
* [[It's times like these that...]]
 
 
* [[One third as much water as potatoes|One third as much water as potatoes]]
 
* [[One third as much water as potatoes|One third as much water as potatoes]]
  
 
==== Vocabulary ====
 
==== Vocabulary ====
  
'''Please''' check for existing attempts (e.g. the 1994 lujvo list, [http://www.lojban.org/files/draft-dictionary/NORALUJV.txt),] before asking here. The list shouldn\'t get too openended. Asterisked entries are in lujvo list. ''(IMHO this list is full of misleadingly'' glijbo ''derivations, which should be carefully looked up on a'' rafsi ''list before using as a plug-in English equivalent.)'' True, but my point still stands...
+
<u>Please</u> check for existing attempts (e.g. in [[jbovlaste]]) before asking here. The list shouldn't get too open-ended. Asterisked entries are in lujvo list. This list is full of misleadingly glijbo derivations, which should be carefully looked up on a rafsi list before using as a plug-in English equivalent.
 
* [[widdershins|widdershins]]
 
* [[widdershins|widdershins]]
 
* [[dragon|dragon]]
 
* [[dragon|dragon]]
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* [[camera obscura|camera obscura]]
 
* [[camera obscura|camera obscura]]
 
* [[observative|observative]]
 
* [[observative|observative]]
* [[forensic|forensic]]
+
* forensic
 
* [[infrared and ultraviolet|infrared and ultraviolet]]
 
* [[infrared and ultraviolet|infrared and ultraviolet]]
* [[clever|clever]]
+
* clever
 
* [[skami mrilu cmene|e-mail address]]
 
* [[skami mrilu cmene|e-mail address]]
  
====Other====
+
* I want to say that I wrote five [http://satirist.org/lojban/xrejbo/karsna.html vowel epigrams], each of which uses only one of Lojban's five basic vowels, and all of which together use all of them. Here's what I came up with. I think it's right, but I'm not sure.
I want to say that I wrote five [http://satirist.org/lojban/xrejbo/karsna.html owel epigrams], each of which uses only one of Lojban's five basic vowels, and all of which together use all of them. Here's what I came up with. I think it's right, but I'm not sure.
+
** [[jezrax|jezrax]]:
 +
*** '''.i mi finti mu da poi karsna se cpinyctusku .ije ro da selpau pa ko'a goi le mu lojbo ke sampu karsna .ije lu'o ro da selpau ro ko'a'''
 +
** [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
 +
*** You want "For each of Lojban's 5 vowels I wrote exactly one epigram that uses only that vowel" = "le mu lojbo -[[phonetics|vowel]] goi ko'a zo'u mi finti pa -epigram poi ro -[[phonetics|vowel]] in ke'a is of type ko'a". I don't think it's clear what quantifying over ko'a means, so I find it difficult to say for sure what your Lojban actually means if interpreted literally.
 +
**** '''.i ki'e .and.''' A big improvement. Running this through the jezrax filter, I get '''.i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a du da''' (I'm glad I got to use '''po'e'''!)
 +
** [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
 +
*** It gets the logical form right. I don't get what the ''me'e'' is doing there, though. Also, if '''ro karsna <u>du</u> da''', then each karsna must be a vowel type, not a vowel token, but then does it make sense for there to be a ponse/po'e relation between epigram and vowel type?
 +
** '''''me'e'' '''translates the quotation marks in ''I wrote five "vowel epigrams", each....''
 +
** The type/token issue is tricky. The type and token are not '''mintu '''or '''du''' (the same), but they are '''dunli''' (equal in value) with an appropriate x3, and the token is '''me''' the type. In this case '''me''' does not seem to introduce any ambiguity, so the corrected version is '''.i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a me da'''.
  
''.i mi finti mu da poi karsna se cpinyctusku .ije ro da selpau pa ko'a goi le mu lojbo ke sampu karsna .ije lu'o ro da selpau ro ko'a''
 
 
''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''
 
* You want "For each of Lojban's 5 vowels I wrote exactly one epigram that uses only that vowel" = "le mu lojbo -[[Phonetics|vowel]] goi ko'a zo'u mi finti pa -epigram poi ro -[[Phonetics|vowel]] in ke'a is of type ko'a". I don't think it's clear what quantifying over ko'a means, so I find it difficult to say for sure what your Lojban actually means if interpreted literally. --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
 
* ''.i ki'e .and.'' A big improvement. Running this through the jezrax filter, I get ''.i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a du da'' (I'm glad I got to use ''po'e''!)
 
* It gets the logical form right. I don't get what the ''me'e'' is doing there, though. Also, if "''ro karsna **du** da''", then each karsna must be a vowel type, not a vowel token, but then does it make sense for there to be a ponse/po'e relation between epigram and vowel type? --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
 
* ''me'e'' translates the quotation marks in ''I wrote five "vowel epigrams", each....''
 
* The type/token issue is tricky. The type and token are not ''mintu'' or ''du'' (the same), but they are ''dunli'' (equal in value) with an appropriate x3, and the token is ''me'' the type.  In this case ''me'' does not seem to introduce any ambiguity, so the corrected version is ''.i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a me da''.
 
=Examples=
 
 
*Cheers!
 
*Cheers!
 
* What is a good translation of 'Intellectual Property'? Is it as simple as:  '''sidbo ponse'''?
 
* What is a good translation of 'Intellectual Property'? Is it as simple as:  '''sidbo ponse'''?

Revision as of 14:28, 2 September 2014

This is a page where people can ask whether they've correctly understood, written, or translated some non-trivial bit of Lojban.

Some concepts are harder to express in Lojban than others... These are the fruits of sometimes extremely lengthy discussions, but are by no means to be regarded as the last word, in some cases!

See also What does it mean? for problems going the other way.

Grammar

  • Which terminators are elidable?
  • Do you want coffee or tea?
  • Subjunctives and conditionals
  • unless
  • only
  • The 17 tallest men
  • I'm stronger than last year
  • How old are you?
  • Frank likes Betty more than Mary
  • I like you being beaten by me
  • A pound was five dollars
    • lo brityrupnu be li pa pu vamji lo merkyrupnu be li mu
      • We don't say mu merkyrupnu for five dollars; that means five things (prices? costs?) which are a dollar each. How do we do it instead?
        • Uh, lo merkyrupnu be li mu?
          • nitcion:
            • No, that doesn't work either: that is one or more things which are (cost?) five dollars each. Loglan solves this problem by a conventional hack of using the number 5d to mean five dollars. This is malylojbo. The more general question is, how do you speak of measurements, abstracted from the thing being measured? The abstract notion of "5 m", as opposed to "that which is 5 m long"? Solve that, and you solve the abstract $5, as in "my bank balance is $5." For the physical currency, on the other hand, all you need is sicni be le merko befi li mu (sicni obviously being intended for banknotes as well as coins); and I don't think sicni befi mu meryru'u is unintelligible either.
          • pne:
            • What's the second be for in sicni be le merko befi li mi? Is the fi li mi supposed to be attached to merko? Or is it supposed to be a bei instead? le ka ritru'u li pa pu dunli le ka meryru'u li mu kei le ka ce'u vamji makau
              • nitcion:
                • Yeah, I was afraid the answer was ka. I certainly don't think it's nileni meryru'u li mu seems to be just silly. But does this work for "my bank balance is $5"? Or do I use vamji there too? meryru'u mumei? It requires a convention, but a relatively clear one, whose literal meaning is not going to be common.
      • This is clearly not a general solution (if a solution at all), for "five feet", say, is not a set and even less so "five degrees" of temperature.
  • Letters as themselves
  • Because she hit her head and fell from the boat, she drowned
  • Each of us must bring their own toothbrush
  • Quotes without a speaker specified
  • thank you very much as distinct from just thank you
    • ki'esai or ki'ecai
  • Can't we all just get along?
    • .a'o ma'a sarxe simxu
  • We can build a church or a school
  • the World (as a Capitalized Abstraction)
    • Depending on context, you might say: le terdi, le se terdi, ro se terdi
    • Other suggestions: munje, remna munje, cfipyboi
    • From the jvoste: mu'ezda, rolgu'e, rolre'azda, rolzda
  • Go outside
  • My mother's height
  • Guns don't kill people; People do
  • So this is the song of the double-soul, distortedly two in one.
  • than
  • Should without using nitcu or .ei
    • That's an odd requirement, a bit like asking how to say "hand" without using xance. The natural way of translating "should" is with ei.
    • .djorden.:
      • The concept of obligation is largely different from English should in many cases. If I say "I should go to the store", or "I should eat something", it's not nearly as strong as saying "I need to eat something". It may be just as simple as using .eiru'e in those cases though...
        • .kreig.daniyl.:
          • But what about things you should do? Cross-reference: Rant: e.'o and e'u are not commands
          • ei do zukte
            • .kreig.:
              • "I am obligated to have you do it"? ei is a feeling of obligation. You could use eidai - you feel obligated to do it - or you could/should reread Rant: e'o and e'u are not commands and realize that using an attitudinal to try to order someone to do something is just plain wrong. Personally, I'm for nitcu, perhaps with a ru'e stuck in to indicate that you don't need to do it, you just should. But we're supposed to go without nitcu, for some odd reason.
              • xorxes:
                • ei does not mean "I am obligated", it means "this is how I feel things should be". ei do zukte means "I feel it should be so that you do it", or simply "you should do it", which is not to say that you should feel you should do it or feel anything else. "You should do it" is about how I feel, not about how you feel. Also, "you should do it" is not really a command.
                  • It shouldn't be, but there are times when it is used that way. Sometimes it is also a threat, as in "Why, I oughtta...".
    • bilga
  • yet and already problem
  • you get what you pay for
  • email copies appreciated, since I read the digest
  • I know how many cows are here
  • a lot of water
  • describe human motion
  • Again: ''only''
  • facing the forest
  • I being this individual speaker
  • free tmobile cell phones
  • The Yankees
  • This has not been a busy day
  • One third as much water as potatoes

Vocabulary

Please check for existing attempts (e.g. in jbovlaste) before asking here. The list shouldn't get too open-ended. Asterisked entries are in lujvo list. This list is full of misleadingly glijbo derivations, which should be carefully looked up on a rafsi list before using as a plug-in English equivalent.

  • I want to say that I wrote five vowel epigrams, each of which uses only one of Lojban's five basic vowels, and all of which together use all of them. Here's what I came up with. I think it's right, but I'm not sure.
    • jezrax:
      • .i mi finti mu da poi karsna se cpinyctusku .ije ro da selpau pa ko'a goi le mu lojbo ke sampu karsna .ije lu'o ro da selpau ro ko'a
    • And Rosta:
      • You want "For each of Lojban's 5 vowels I wrote exactly one epigram that uses only that vowel" = "le mu lojbo -vowel goi ko'a zo'u mi finti pa -epigram poi ro -vowel in ke'a is of type ko'a". I don't think it's clear what quantifying over ko'a means, so I find it difficult to say for sure what your Lojban actually means if interpreted literally.
        • .i ki'e .and. A big improvement. Running this through the jezrax filter, I get .i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a du da (I'm glad I got to use po'e!)
    • And Rosta:
      • It gets the logical form right. I don't get what the me'e is doing there, though. Also, if ro karsna du da, then each karsna must be a vowel type, not a vowel token, but then does it make sense for there to be a ponse/po'e relation between epigram and vowel type?
    • me'e translates the quotation marks in I wrote five "vowel epigrams", each....
    • The type/token issue is tricky. The type and token are not mintu or du (the same), but they are dunli (equal in value) with an appropriate x3, and the token is me the type. In this case me does not seem to introduce any ambiguity, so the corrected version is .i mu da poi lojbo ke sampu karsna zo'u mi finti pa me'e karsna se cpinyctusku poi ro karsna po'e ke'a me da.
  • Cheers!
  • What is a good translation of 'Intellectual Property'? Is it as simple as:  sidbo ponse?
  • the bell rings
    • le janbe cu janbe, da janbe
      • A bell is more than just something that rings.
  • it's raining
    • ca'a carvi
      • That's good. Often the meaning will be clear from context (you have just looked out the window), and all you need say is carvi. Other times you may need to be clear (you're writing e-mail), and you'd go for ca carvi. There are lots of ways to say anything.
      • carvi is inspecific as to the type of precipitation (lo snime .a lo sicpi .a lo bratu .azo'e).
  • It's times like these that...
    • rlpowell: lo nu X cu fadni fi lo jalge be lo simsa fasnu
  • malglico examples
  • malglico