Frank likes Betty more than Mary: Difference between revisions

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{{se inspekte/en}}Continuation of [['''pe''' necessary for "sumti plus (BAI-type modifier)" (gotcha)]].
think about the following for a moment:
[[CLL|Refgram]]:
 
{{mu|la frank cu nelci la betis ne semau la meiris}}
.i le birka be la djan. spofu
{{mu|la frank cu nelci la meiris ne seme'a la betis}}
 
*xod:
this is a arm-of-john kind of break, instead of the (likely intended) john's arm is broken:
*:I avoid '''semau''' and '''seme'a''' because I find their reversed meanings a little clumsly. So far I have been able to use '''zmadu''' as a main selbri and as a tanru or lujvo piece, and never had to deal with those 2 modals.
 
**I don't think that there's a question that all uses of '''mau''' and '''me'a''' can be paraphrased with '''zmadu''' or '''mleca''' as the main selbri, but often it gives constructions whose main selbri is very different from the conceptually most significant selbri.
.i le birka be la djan. cu spofu
***[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
 
***:True. Still, it's my impression most Lojbanists do avoid it, because of its whiff of '''ka malrarbau''' (see below.)
without the cu the spofu is considered part of a tanru-selbri for the le.
*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
*:Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, or i'm simply naive, but what is wrong with '''la frank cu nelci la meris noi zmadu la betis'''?
**The answer is, as you'd expect, a question: '''zmadu fi ma?''' But back when this kind of calque was being come up with (ca. 1990), [[ce'u|ce'u]] was not even a twinkle in [[Adam Raizen|Adam Raizen]]'s eye. :-) Our modern technology allows:
{{mu|la frank cu nelci la betis noi zmadu la meris loni la frank cu nelci ce'u}}
And of course, you can just cut out the middleman and end up with
{{mu|la betis cu zmadu la meris loni la frank cu nelci ce'u}}
*[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
*:Which is so forehead-slappingly better, you've gotta wonder why it's taken so long for anyone to realize it...
**[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
**:maybe it just needed some sleep-deprivation to inspire it? (or have you already relocated to '''.au''' such that you've been in a same time zone for the past few hours while this exchange occurred?) Guilty as charged! And it's not like I haven't got the etymology of Boosalis to be researching... (For the record: 5:57 AM Pacific Time, 6:57 AM Mountain Time)
*[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
*:Clarification: Lojbab protests that I had said pretty much that, without the '''ce'u''', in 1992. Not the point: back then, we didn't have '''ce'u''', to disambiguate who was less than who, which is why the '''nemau'''-construction exists in the first place. So I what I said back then using '''loni''' was a context-dependent mess.
*:'''la frank cu nelci la meris noi zmadu la betis''' is the type of sentence which inspires using '''zmanei''' for ''prefer''.
*Also try: '''la frank nelci la betis [[xe'e|xe'e]] semau la meiris'''
* '''.i zo mau zo'u rarbausmi jume'abo sarcu'''

Latest revision as of 09:03, 26 September 2014

Continuation of '''pe''' necessary for "sumti plus (BAI-type modifier)" (gotcha).

Refgram:

la frank cu nelci la betis ne semau la meiris
la frank cu nelci la meiris ne seme'a la betis
  • xod:
    I avoid semau and seme'a because I find their reversed meanings a little clumsly. So far I have been able to use zmadu as a main selbri and as a tanru or lujvo piece, and never had to deal with those 2 modals.
    • I don't think that there's a question that all uses of mau and me'a can be paraphrased with zmadu or mleca as the main selbri, but often it gives constructions whose main selbri is very different from the conceptually most significant selbri.
      • nitcion:
        True. Still, it's my impression most Lojbanists do avoid it, because of its whiff of ka malrarbau (see below.)
  • Jay:
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, or i'm simply naive, but what is wrong with la frank cu nelci la meris noi zmadu la betis?
    • The answer is, as you'd expect, a question: zmadu fi ma? But back when this kind of calque was being come up with (ca. 1990), ce'u was not even a twinkle in Adam Raizen's eye. :-) Our modern technology allows:
la frank cu nelci la betis noi zmadu la meris loni la frank cu nelci ce'u

And of course, you can just cut out the middleman and end up with

la betis cu zmadu la meris loni la frank cu nelci ce'u
  • nitcion:
    Which is so forehead-slappingly better, you've gotta wonder why it's taken so long for anyone to realize it...
    • Jay:
      maybe it just needed some sleep-deprivation to inspire it? (or have you already relocated to .au such that you've been in a same time zone for the past few hours while this exchange occurred?) Guilty as charged! And it's not like I haven't got the etymology of Boosalis to be researching... (For the record: 5:57 AM Pacific Time, 6:57 AM Mountain Time)
  • nitcion:
    Clarification: Lojbab protests that I had said pretty much that, without the ce'u, in 1992. Not the point: back then, we didn't have ce'u, to disambiguate who was less than who, which is why the nemau-construction exists in the first place. So I what I said back then using loni was a context-dependent mess.
    la frank cu nelci la meris noi zmadu la betis is the type of sentence which inspires using zmanei for prefer.
  • Also try: la frank nelci la betis xe'e semau la meiris
  • .i zo mau zo'u rarbausmi jume'abo sarcu
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