BPFK Section: gadri as of 25 Dec 2004: Difference between revisions

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== Proposed definitions ==


Recently, I came across this famous quote in Lakota and Chinese versions:
;'''lo''' (LE): Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such individuals. When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier, ''lo'' can be omitted.


Aguyapi ecela un wicasa kin ni pi sni...
lo rozgu cu xunre


Ren shenghuo bu dan kao shiwu, erqie...
''Roses are red.''


???????????..
xu ro lo rozgu cu xunre i na go'i i mu'a su'o lo rozgu cu pelxu


(encoding UTF-8)
''Is every rose red? No, some roses are yellow, for example.''


and was wondering how to render it in Lojban. Here's my try (plz comment!):
lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e krixa


lo'e renma cu jmive co banro fi lo nanba nalpavmei...
''Students are surrounding the building and yelling.''


lo'e renma cu mivyba'o fi lo nanba nalpavmei...
ko'a pu lebna lo xanlai pe lo cmananba gi'e dunda ciboi cy mi


lo'e renma cu banro befi lo nanba nalpavmei be'o jmive...
''He grabbed a handful of biscuits and gave me three.''


lo'e renma cu nanba nalpavmei mivyterba'o...
ca ro nu mi rere'u catlu lo skina kei mi cpacu lo so'i se cusku poi mi na cpacu ca lo pamoi


I somewhat like the last one (being other than sure whether it's correct).
''Every time I see a movie for the second time I get all this dialogue that I missed the first time.''


pc:
ei lo verba cu mutce fraxu lo makcu prenu


1 doesn't do it: {banro3} is the earlier stage of the growing one, not the means of growing.  And, is {nalpavmei} well-formed?  Surely the original has the {na} sentential rather than predicative. In this case it probably doesn't make much of difference, but there are cases where "does by something other than a monad" is different from "doesn't do by a monad" (which allows "doesn't do at all," for example).  These objections run through all the permutations.
''Children should show great forbearance toward grown-up people.''


I thought the notion here was (in English, to be sure) "alone,"  whose relation to "only" is complex.
ku'i uinai mi na viska lo lanme pa'o lo bitmu be fo lo tanxe i ju'ocu'i mi milxe simsa lo makcu prenu


{lo nanba nalpavmei} most likely means "a mass of bread with other than one member" which is quite different from "a mass of supports for life with bread and other members," which is presumably what is wanted (one form of it anyhow).
''But I, alas, do not see sheep through the walls of boxes. Perhaps I am a little like the grown-ups.''


Yes, thanks: _banro3_ cannot be used, but maybe a sumti tcita like _teri'a_??
ca lo nicte lo cinfo cu kalte lo cidja


Yet, the real point in question remains "not only/not alone :( (which in Chinese here is a conjunction _bu dan_ - not merely/only: not only A but also B - whereas an adverbal homophone has the meaning not alone/single).
''At night lions hunt for food.''


In Lojban, I think, nalpavmei doesn't cover the notion of "...but also B" (I'd understand it as "other than a onesome with regard to bread" or such. I feel that not the somewhat "open" tanru construction of _nanba nalpavmei_ is the problem, but - dito - the lujvo with pamei. Any solutions?
lo pa pixra cu se vamji lo ki'o valsi


pc:
''One picture is worth a thousand words.''


Well, as always, the basic Lojban form for "only bread is what we live by" -- borrowed from formal logic --  is "if it is something we live by then it is bread," which is here to be denied:  "something is something we live by and not bread."  Relevantly in this case, this still does not say that bread is something we live by, as the original clearly intends.  There does not seem to be a compact way of saying this in basic Lojban and I don't know which of the later idioms has been accepted (if any) and carries this version of the meaning: "Bread is something we live by but not everything we live by is bread."  Of course it may be something like (as noted earlier) "What we live by is a mass, one component of which is bread but the others are not."
de'i li 1960 lo pare sovda cu fepni li 42


[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]: Some possibilities are:
''In 1960 a dozen eggs cost 42 cents.''


lo nanba na banzu lo nu lo remna cu jmive
cimai lo ctuca cu fendi lo selctu lo mu gunma be lo vo tadni


Bread is not enough for Man to live.
''Step 3: The teacher will divide the class into five groups of four students.''


lo remna cu nitcu lo na'e ji'a nanba lo nu jmive
lo bidjylinsi pe lo ze seldri cu se pagbu ze gunma be lo ze bidju be'o e ji'a ci bidju e lo kucyga'asni


Man needs non-bread too in order to live.
''The Rosary of the Seven Sorrows consists of seven groups of seven beads, with three additional beads and a Crucifix.''


lo nanba na nonkansa lo nu se nitcu lo remna lo nu jmive
ro lo bidjylinsi pe le ze seldri cu se pagbu ze lo gunma be lo ze bidju be'o e ji'a ci lo bidju e pa lo kucyga'asni


Bread is not alone in being needed by Man to live.
''Every Rosary of the Seven Sorrows consists of seven groups of seven beads, with three additional beads and exactly one Crucifix.''


lo remna cu nitcu lo nanba po'onai lo nu jmive
o'i mu (lo) xagji sofybakni cu zvati le purdi


Man needs (not only) bread in order to live.
''Caution! There are five hungry Soviet cows in the garden.''


The something-but-not-everything version might be:
lo sanli darxi bo dakli cu culno lo djacu onai lo canre to lo djacu cu pukmau ki'u lo nu slilu tolcando toi gi'e bunda li ji'i 270


su'o jeku'i me'i se nitcu be lo remna bei lo nu jmive cu nanba
''Standing punching bags are filled with water or sand - water being preferable because of the wave-motion created - and weigh about 270lbs.''


Some but not all of the things needed by Man to live are bread.
lo pavyseljirna cu ranmi danlu gi'e simlu lo ka ge ce'u xirma gi lo pa jirna cu cpana lo mebri be ce'u


pc: usual footnotes worrying about unflagged sumti after {nitcu} and whether {po'o} can come out of its adverbial use to play a quantifier role.
''Unicorns are mythical creatures that look like a horse with a horn coming out of their foreheads.''


Does {lo na'e ji'a nanba} really work out right?  It looks a natural for "bread alone."
re lo so plini cu zmadu le terdi lo ka ce'u jibni le solri


*{ji'a} modifies {na'e}, not the other way around.
''Two of the nine planets are closer to the Sun than the Earth.''


Only the last of these obviously implies that bread is something which man lives by -- that is, the others get the weak "not only" -- which may be enough.
;'''le''' (LE): Specific article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to an individual or individuals that the speaker has in mind and which the speaker describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over those individuals.  


[[jbocre: .aulun.|.aulun.]]: Thanks, very interesting examples!
le palta ba'o porpi i ma gasnu i xu le gerku cu go'i


lo nanba na banzu lo nu lo remna cu jmive
''The dish is broken. Who did it? Was it the dog?''


Bread is not enough for Man to live.
ko punji le sicni ja'e lo porsi be lo vamrai ku bi'o lo vamtolrai


Could this be ambiguous: There is not enough bread for man to live ?
''Put the coins in order from greatest to least value.''


*Hmm... I think that would be: {lo namba klani na banzu lo nu lo remna cu jmive}, ''the amount of bread is not enough for man to live''.
ci le bi ctuca cu ninmu


lo remna cu nitcu lo nanba po'onai lo nu jmive
''Three of the eight teachers are women.''


I also saw problems with {po'o} so I didn't use it.
le va ninmu cu mutce melbi iku'i ca'a nanmu gi'e nelci lo nu ninmu dasni


lo nanba na nonkansa lo nu se nitcu lo remna lo nu jmive
''That woman is very beautiful, but she's actually a man who likes to dress as a woman.''


{nonkansa}: "zero-accompany" -> not being together/along with -> being alone(?) hence:
;'''la''' (LA): Name article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to an individual or individuals that the speaker has in mind and which the speaker names with the selbri or cmevla.  An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over those individuals.


lo nanba nonkansa lo nu se nitcu lo remna lo nu jmive (?)
ma'i la midju terdi la sadam na sai me la sauron


pc:  The last of these says "Bread ''is'' alone .." so the {na} is needed.
''In Middle Earth-terms, Saddam is by no means a 'Sauron'.''


The first probably requires reading {lo nanba} as the substance, a problem without an agreed upon solution, to do what is wanted (maybe they all do). 
la ci bakni ku poi gusta bu'u la kaiapois cu banli ge lo ka vanbi gi lo ka cidja


xorxes' second -- even if it gets around the {nitcu} problem -- has the {lo na'e nanba} misplaced, since it -- in the original anyhow -- has longer scope than even the present sentence, leading up to the namely rider "but by every word of God."
''The Three Cows Restaurant in Kaiapoi is a wonderful place, both atmosphere and food-wise.''


*I'm not sure I understand the objection. It basically says that man needs non-bread in order to live. It doesn't specify the kind of non-bread needed, but neither does the original.  --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
ci la magdonaldz cu jibni le mi briju
**pc: Matthew 4:4 "One does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God," (NRSV -- the ooriginal is from the in this case slightly more accurate KJV) quoting some place else in the Bible that I can't track down at the moment.  So {da poi na nanba ...} at the beginning and a "namely" at the end (I forget how that is lexed this time around). 


***Deuteronomy 8:3. 
''There are three McDonald's near my office.''
**The external quantifier also saves the bacon with {nitcu}, guaranteeing that what is needed exists, as the buried one does not (though that is probably not a problem in this case).  This is getting pretty non-gnomic and structurally pretty far from the original -- as usual when logic come in; maybe a rough approximation that is zippy would be better.


***? {lo remna na jmive sepi'o loi nanba joi no da i ku'i na go'i sepi'o ro valsi co se cusku be la cev}?
----------------
****{loi nanba ku joi no da}. That's interesting. Presumably it is a different thing than plain {loi nanba}, but what is it? You need {ja'a} rather than {na} in the second bridi, as they act on go'i substitutively rather than cumulatively.  --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


*****Yes, {ku} indeed (note to loCCan: get the connectives regularized) -- though that does not explain why the parser just drops {loi naba joi} and gives a parse, rather than saying it is imparsible.
;'''loi''' (LE): Generic mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to a group or groups of individuals that fit the first argument of the selbri and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the group or groups. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.
*****{ja'a} is less clear; it makes sense given the replacements elsewhere, but the denial of the previous sentence, in the one place where it is mentioned, is {na go'i}. To be sure that one example is of an affirmative sentence, but the rule is stated generally.


*****As I said, not quite accurate but zippier: {no da} for "nothing else" (as all to often generally) but I would work it out that loi nanba + nothing is loi nanba, with the addition that nothing else was involved at that place.  Of course, putting it in the negative confuses issues a bit and loses the guarantee that bread is involved: "Man lives either by bread and something (else) or not by bread at all but something (else)" (and of course an arrray of other possibilities depending where the "not"s come down -- or the line between presupposition and claim.
loi litru ti jmaji lo ro pagbu be le terdi
*****(later) Ahah! An ambiguity in "alone."  This version is for "by itself," which denied means that bread doesn't work unless acompanied by something else.  The other meaning is nearer "only" -- bread and nothing else works at all.  So, we need to deny as above but with {e} in place of {joi} and then work back in that bread does work (I think), which works out eventually to {loi nanba e lo na'e nanba} after all the various versions of De Morgan have been got through.


****[[jbocre: .aulun.|.aulun.]]: "{ja'a} is less clear..." - This I can't understand: {na go'i} denies that "man doesn't live from bread and nothing else" (which certainly is a statement that is meant to be true) where there should be an affirmative {ja'a} instead! What should be wrong with {ja'a}??
''Tourists gather here from all over the world.''  
***** {na go'i sepi'o ro valsi co se cusku be la cev} denies {lo remna na jmive sepi'o ro valsi co se cusku be la cev}, that is, {go'i} with the given {sepi'o} replaced as indicated.  All of this is arguable, of course, since CLL is either not forthcoming with information or is contradictory (or both, of course).  It would seem that if I use replacement once, it should use it both times, and yet the principle stated is that {na} is to be used for denial -- with no special rule about negated sentences.


***** [[jbocre: .aulun.|.aulun.]]: Thanks, got it now what's your idea (although don't think it's too intuitive - what maybe also depends from my Lojban being a bit rusty already).
loi so'i tadni cu sruri le dinju i so'i le tadni cu krixa
 
''Many students are surrounding the building. Many of the students are yelling.''
 
lo mulno kardygri cu gunma lo vo loi paci karda
 
''A full deck consists of four groups of thirteen cards.''
 
;'''lei''' (LE): Specific mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to a group of individuals that the speaker has in mind and describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the group. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.
 
lei brazo cu jinga fi lei dotco la kabri
 
''The Brazilians beat the Germans for the Cup.''
 
;'''lai''' (LA): Name mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to a group of individuals that  the speaker has in mind and names with the selbri or cmevla and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.
 
ta melbi pixra lai simpson
 
''That's a nice photograph of the Simpsons.''
 
;'''lo'i''' (LE): Generic set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to a set or sets of individuals that fit the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the set. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.
 
ma cnano lo junta lo'i cifnu poi cazi jbena
 
''What is the normal weight of a baby at childbirth?''
 
;'''le'i''' (LE): Specific set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to the set of individuals that the speaker has in mind and describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the set.  An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.
 
ro le verba pu cuxna pa karda le'i cnita selcra
 
''Each child chose a card from the face-down collection.''
 
;'''la'i''' (LA): Name set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to the set of individuals that the speaker has in mind and names with the selbri or cmevla. An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name.  An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.
 
doi turni do so'i da na fadni la'i kenedis ma'i lo jecra'a
 
''Governor, in many respects, you're not a typical Kennedy politically.''
 
=== Formal definitions ===
 
||
 
LE, LA
 
lo [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  zo'e noi ke'a broda [[jbocre: gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda|gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda]]
 
le [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda [[jbocre: gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda|gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda]]
 
la [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  zo'e noi lu [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda li'u cmene ke'a mi
 
lo PA ''sumti'' | lo PA me ''sumti''
 
le PA ''sumti'' | le PA me ''sumti''
 
la PA ''sumti'' | zo'e noi lu PA ''sumti'' li'u cmene ke'a mi
 
loi [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo gunma be lo [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
lei [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo gunma be le [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
lai [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo gunma be la [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
loi PA ''sumti'' | lo gunma be lo PA ''sumti''
 
lei PA ''sumti'' | lo gunma be le PA ''sumti''
 
lai PA ''sumti'' | lo gunma be la PA ''sumti''
 
lo'i [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo selcmi be lo [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
le'i [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo selcmi be le [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
la'i [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda  lo selcmi be la [[jbocre: PA|PA]] broda
 
lo'i PA ''sumti'' | lo selcmi be lo PA ''sumti''
 
le'i PA ''sumti'' | lo selcmi be le PA ''sumti''
 
la'i PA ''sumti'' | lo selcmi be la PA ''sumti''
 
||
 
||
 
Quantified terms
 
PA ''sumti'' | PA da poi ke'a me ''sumti''
 
PA broda | PA lo broda
 
piPA ''sumti'' | lo piPA si'e be pa me ''sumti''
 
piPA
 
||
 
=== Summary ===
 
||'''Cmavo'''|'''Article'''|'''Key phrase'''|'''Outer quantifier'''|'''Inner quantifier'''|'''Default quantifier'''
 
lo|<font color="#FF0000">Generic</font>|fits|distributive over individuals|number of individuals <font color="#FF0000">not necessarily all that exist</font>|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
le|Specific|described as|distributive over individuals|number of individuals|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
la|Name|named with|distributive over individuals|part of the name|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
loi|<font color="#FF0000">Generic </font>mass|fit and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|number of individuals <font color="#FF0000">not necessarily all that exist</font>|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
lei|Specific mass|described as and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|number of individuals|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
lai|Name mass|named with and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|part of the name|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
lo'i|<font color="#FF0000">Generic</font> set|has only members that fit|selects subset|cardinality of set <font color="#FF0000">not necessarily all that exist</font>|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
le'i|Specific set|has only members described as|selects subset|cardinality of set|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
la'i|Name set|has only members named with|selects subset|part of the name|<font color="#FF0000">none</font>
 
||
 
<font color="#FF0000">''changes from CLL are shown in red'' </font>
 
=== Notes ===
 
* An ''individual'' can be anything, including a group, a set, a substance, a number, etc. {lo broda} can refer to one or more individuals. {lo'i broda} can refer only to those individuals that are sets. {loi broda} can refer only to those individuals that are groups ('masses').
 
* Any term without an explicit outer quantifier is a '''constant''', i.e. not a quantified term. This means that it '''refers''' to one or more individuals, and changing the order in which the constant term appears with respect to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change the meaning of the sentence. A constant is something that always keeps the same referent or referents. For example {lo broda} always refers to brodas. In {mu da poi broda zo'u da brode}, "da" is a quantified variable, bound by the quantifier ''mu'', and it takes its values from the set of all things that broda. (Within the scope of the quantifier, it acts as a constant term, but it cannot escape as a constant out of that scope.) Any term with a quantifier in front takes values from the set of things over which the quantifier runs. When an unquantified term is quantified, the quantifier runs over the referents of the unquantified term.
 
* CLL says about default quantifiers: ^''There are rules for each of the 11 descriptors specifying what the implicit values for the inner and outer quantifiers are. They are meant to provide sensible default values when context is absent, not necessarily to prescribe hard and fast rules. The following table lists the implicit values:'' ^The proposed definitions take the view that the most sensible default value when no explicit quantification is given is no quantification at all and that the unquantified terms are constants.
 
=== Usage convention suggestions ===
 
* To refer to substances, lo/le/la without any quantifier are appropriate. The number {tu'o} could be used as inner quantifier to emphasize that no cardinality applies.
 
le nanmu cu se snuti ija'ebo lo tu'o gerku cu kuspe le klaji
 
''The guy had an accident and there was dog all over the road.''
 
* A substance can also be seen as made up of component parts, and this can even be true in a physical sense: the water in a puddle of rain got there drop by drop.  If you look from far enough away, you can't tell whether the "sailor all over the deck" is literally goo, or just an aggregation of sailors standing still. So a substance may be treated as a group made up of individuals without worrying about which individuals they are.
 
=== Impact ===
 
* Positive impact: Some usages that make little sense with {lo} = {su'o} become validated. Examples:
 
bilga lenu jdice lenu roroi pilno '''lo''' mokla tirxe (to zoigy. velar gy. toi) jonai crane (to zoigy. alveolar gy. toi)
 
[[jbocre: tavla fi le tutra pe le terdi|tavla fi le tutra pe le terdi]]
 
le cmana '''lo''' cidja ba claxu
 
''In the mountains there is no food.''
 
[[jbocre: lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli|lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli]]
 
le dargu pe '''lo''' xamgu bangu cu kargu
 
''The road of the good language is costly.''
 
[[jbocre: lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli|lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli]]
 
la jyryr. tolkien. cu te cukta la djine turni (to la'o gy Lord of the Rings gy toi) .e le so'omoi be '''lo'''  xanri munje lisri ca le lampru na'acto
 
[[jbocre: tenguar|tenguar]]  
 
* Negative impact: It is conceivable that some usages become more vague than intended if the default quantifiers played an important role in some expression, such as interactions between su'o and na, but it is hard to determine. If someone finds examples where this happens please report them.
 
{MODULE(module=>BPFK Poll: gadri)}BPFK Poll: gadri{MODULE}

Revision as of 16:44, 4 November 2013

Proposed definitions

lo (LE)
Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such individuals. When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier, lo can be omitted.

lo rozgu cu xunre

Roses are red.

xu ro lo rozgu cu xunre i na go'i i mu'a su'o lo rozgu cu pelxu

Is every rose red? No, some roses are yellow, for example.

lo tadni cu sruri le dinju gi'e krixa

Students are surrounding the building and yelling.

ko'a pu lebna lo xanlai pe lo cmananba gi'e dunda ciboi cy mi

He grabbed a handful of biscuits and gave me three.

ca ro nu mi rere'u catlu lo skina kei mi cpacu lo so'i se cusku poi mi na cpacu ca lo pamoi

Every time I see a movie for the second time I get all this dialogue that I missed the first time.

ei lo verba cu mutce fraxu lo makcu prenu

Children should show great forbearance toward grown-up people.

ku'i uinai mi na viska lo lanme pa'o lo bitmu be fo lo tanxe i ju'ocu'i mi milxe simsa lo makcu prenu

But I, alas, do not see sheep through the walls of boxes. Perhaps I am a little like the grown-ups.

ca lo nicte lo cinfo cu kalte lo cidja

At night lions hunt for food.

lo pa pixra cu se vamji lo ki'o valsi

One picture is worth a thousand words.

de'i li 1960 lo pare sovda cu fepni li 42

In 1960 a dozen eggs cost 42 cents.

cimai lo ctuca cu fendi lo selctu lo mu gunma be lo vo tadni

Step 3: The teacher will divide the class into five groups of four students.

lo bidjylinsi pe lo ze seldri cu se pagbu ze gunma be lo ze bidju be'o e ji'a ci bidju e lo kucyga'asni

The Rosary of the Seven Sorrows consists of seven groups of seven beads, with three additional beads and a Crucifix.

ro lo bidjylinsi pe le ze seldri cu se pagbu ze lo gunma be lo ze bidju be'o e ji'a ci lo bidju e pa lo kucyga'asni

Every Rosary of the Seven Sorrows consists of seven groups of seven beads, with three additional beads and exactly one Crucifix.

o'i mu (lo) xagji sofybakni cu zvati le purdi

Caution! There are five hungry Soviet cows in the garden.

lo sanli darxi bo dakli cu culno lo djacu onai lo canre to lo djacu cu pukmau ki'u lo nu slilu tolcando toi gi'e bunda li ji'i 270

Standing punching bags are filled with water or sand - water being preferable because of the wave-motion created - and weigh about 270lbs.

lo pavyseljirna cu ranmi danlu gi'e simlu lo ka ge ce'u xirma gi lo pa jirna cu cpana lo mebri be ce'u

Unicorns are mythical creatures that look like a horse with a horn coming out of their foreheads.

re lo so plini cu zmadu le terdi lo ka ce'u jibni le solri

Two of the nine planets are closer to the Sun than the Earth.

le (LE)
Specific article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to an individual or individuals that the speaker has in mind and which the speaker describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over those individuals.

le palta ba'o porpi i ma gasnu i xu le gerku cu go'i

The dish is broken. Who did it? Was it the dog?

ko punji le sicni ja'e lo porsi be lo vamrai ku bi'o lo vamtolrai

Put the coins in order from greatest to least value.

ci le bi ctuca cu ninmu

Three of the eight teachers are women.

le va ninmu cu mutce melbi iku'i ca'a nanmu gi'e nelci lo nu ninmu dasni

That woman is very beautiful, but she's actually a man who likes to dress as a woman.

la (LA)
Name article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to an individual or individuals that the speaker has in mind and which the speaker names with the selbri or cmevla. An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over those individuals.

ma'i la midju terdi la sadam na sai me la sauron

In Middle Earth-terms, Saddam is by no means a 'Sauron'.

la ci bakni ku poi gusta bu'u la kaiapois cu banli ge lo ka vanbi gi lo ka cidja

The Three Cows Restaurant in Kaiapoi is a wonderful place, both atmosphere and food-wise.

ci la magdonaldz cu jibni le mi briju

There are three McDonald's near my office.


loi (LE)
Generic mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to a group or groups of individuals that fit the first argument of the selbri and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the group or groups. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.

loi litru ti jmaji lo ro pagbu be le terdi

Tourists gather here from all over the world.

loi so'i tadni cu sruri le dinju i so'i le tadni cu krixa

Many students are surrounding the building. Many of the students are yelling.

lo mulno kardygri cu gunma lo vo loi paci karda

A full deck consists of four groups of thirteen cards.

lei (LE)
Specific mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to a group of individuals that the speaker has in mind and describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the group. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.

lei brazo cu jinga fi lei dotco la kabri

The Brazilians beat the Germans for the Cup.

lai (LA)
Name mass article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to a group of individuals that the speaker has in mind and names with the selbri or cmevla and which collectively satisfy the predicate for which the sumti is an argument. An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such groups. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subgroup and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the group.

ta melbi pixra lai simpson

That's a nice photograph of the Simpsons.

lo'i (LE)
Generic set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to a set or sets of individuals that fit the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the set. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.

ma cnano lo junta lo'i cifnu poi cazi jbena

What is the normal weight of a baby at childbirth?

le'i (LE)
Specific set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to the set of individuals that the speaker has in mind and describes as fitting the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the cardinality of the set. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.

ro le verba pu cuxna pa karda le'i cnita selcra

Each child chose a card from the face-down collection.

la'i (LA)
Name set article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, or any string of cmevla into a sumti. The resulting expression refers specifically to the set of individuals that the speaker has in mind and names with the selbri or cmevla. An inner quantifier can be used (in the case of a selbri) as part of the name. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively over such sets. A fractional outer quantifier can be used to select a subset and indicate its cardinality as a fraction of the cardinality of the set.

doi turni do so'i da na fadni la'i kenedis ma'i lo jecra'a

Governor, in many respects, you're not a typical Kennedy politically.

Formal definitions

||

LE, LA

lo PA broda zo'e noi ke'a broda gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda

le PA broda zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda

la PA broda zo'e noi lu PA broda li'u cmene ke'a mi

lo PA sumti | lo PA me sumti

le PA sumti | le PA me sumti

la PA sumti | zo'e noi lu PA sumti li'u cmene ke'a mi

loi PA broda lo gunma be lo PA broda

lei PA broda lo gunma be le PA broda

lai PA broda lo gunma be la PA broda

loi PA sumti | lo gunma be lo PA sumti

lei PA sumti | lo gunma be le PA sumti

lai PA sumti | lo gunma be la PA sumti

lo'i PA broda lo selcmi be lo PA broda

le'i PA broda lo selcmi be le PA broda

la'i PA broda lo selcmi be la PA broda

lo'i PA sumti | lo selcmi be lo PA sumti

le'i PA sumti | lo selcmi be le PA sumti

la'i PA sumti | lo selcmi be la PA sumti

||

||

Quantified terms

PA sumti | PA da poi ke'a me sumti

PA broda | PA lo broda

piPA sumti | lo piPA si'e be pa me sumti

piPA

||

Summary

||Cmavo|Article|Key phrase|Outer quantifier|Inner quantifier|Default quantifier

lo|Generic|fits|distributive over individuals|number of individuals not necessarily all that exist|none

le|Specific|described as|distributive over individuals|number of individuals|none

la|Name|named with|distributive over individuals|part of the name|none

loi|Generic mass|fit and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|number of individuals not necessarily all that exist|none

lei|Specific mass|described as and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|number of individuals|none

lai|Name mass|named with and collectively satisfy|selects subgroup|part of the name|none

lo'i|Generic set|has only members that fit|selects subset|cardinality of set not necessarily all that exist|none

le'i|Specific set|has only members described as|selects subset|cardinality of set|none

la'i|Name set|has only members named with|selects subset|part of the name|none

||

changes from CLL are shown in red

Notes

  • An individual can be anything, including a group, a set, a substance, a number, etc. {lo broda} can refer to one or more individuals. {lo'i broda} can refer only to those individuals that are sets. {loi broda} can refer only to those individuals that are groups ('masses').
  • Any term without an explicit outer quantifier is a constant, i.e. not a quantified term. This means that it refers to one or more individuals, and changing the order in which the constant term appears with respect to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change the meaning of the sentence. A constant is something that always keeps the same referent or referents. For example {lo broda} always refers to brodas. In {mu da poi broda zo'u da brode}, "da" is a quantified variable, bound by the quantifier mu, and it takes its values from the set of all things that broda. (Within the scope of the quantifier, it acts as a constant term, but it cannot escape as a constant out of that scope.) Any term with a quantifier in front takes values from the set of things over which the quantifier runs. When an unquantified term is quantified, the quantifier runs over the referents of the unquantified term.
  • CLL says about default quantifiers: ^There are rules for each of the 11 descriptors specifying what the implicit values for the inner and outer quantifiers are. They are meant to provide sensible default values when context is absent, not necessarily to prescribe hard and fast rules. The following table lists the implicit values: ^The proposed definitions take the view that the most sensible default value when no explicit quantification is given is no quantification at all and that the unquantified terms are constants.

Usage convention suggestions

  • To refer to substances, lo/le/la without any quantifier are appropriate. The number {tu'o} could be used as inner quantifier to emphasize that no cardinality applies.

le nanmu cu se snuti ija'ebo lo tu'o gerku cu kuspe le klaji

The guy had an accident and there was dog all over the road.

  • A substance can also be seen as made up of component parts, and this can even be true in a physical sense: the water in a puddle of rain got there drop by drop. If you look from far enough away, you can't tell whether the "sailor all over the deck" is literally goo, or just an aggregation of sailors standing still. So a substance may be treated as a group made up of individuals without worrying about which individuals they are.

Impact

  • Positive impact: Some usages that make little sense with {lo} = {su'o} become validated. Examples:

bilga lenu jdice lenu roroi pilno lo mokla tirxe (to zoigy. velar gy. toi) jonai crane (to zoigy. alveolar gy. toi)

tavla fi le tutra pe le terdi

le cmana lo cidja ba claxu

In the mountains there is no food.

lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli

le dargu pe lo xamgu bangu cu kargu

The road of the good language is costly.

lapoi pelxu ku'o trajynobli

la jyryr. tolkien. cu te cukta la djine turni (to la'o gy Lord of the Rings gy toi) .e le so'omoi be lo xanri munje lisri ca le lampru na'acto

tenguar

  • Negative impact: It is conceivable that some usages become more vague than intended if the default quantifiers played an important role in some expression, such as interactions between su'o and na, but it is hard to determine. If someone finds examples where this happens please report them.

{MODULE(module=>BPFK Poll: gadri)}BPFK Poll: gadri{MODULE}