BPFK Section: Place Structure cmavo: Difference between revisions

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==  Proposed Definitions And Examples ==


''.i le di'u gulbiki cu vasru so'i na'e sklarki ke lojbo futspa .i ku'i le sucta plugandispa cu kakne le nu se gloka sepi'o le vanbi''
----


That sounds like you're talking about some type of plant that grows on a broad island. Also ''di'u'' is wrong.
===  cmavo: fa (FA) ===


''dei noi galbiku cu vasru so'i nalysklarko ke lojbo flustpa .iku'i le banli plagndispo ka'e se glorkena fi le vlavanbi''
====  Proposed Definition ====


* Yet another flaw in type four poo'ivla. ''glorkena''? What's wrong with ''glorke'', since ''rke'' cannot be a rafsi and thus it is not a lujvo?
1st sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 1st sumti place
**''le glorke'' would be understood as the lujvo leg-lorke.


*** Ok, glorkte, since that adds only one phoneme '''and''' matches the pronunciation of the English word ''glorked''.
====  See Also ====


* And why do you ryndomla chenga the vewols uroand? plagandispo? why not plugandispo? And why galbiku - which is a tosmabru, ''galbi ku'' just meaning galbi here. A ''gismu be noda'' perhaps, but still, come on.
* jai
**''galbiku'' is not a tosmabru. galBIku cannot be read as GALbi ku


** That still doesn't justify plagandispo instead of plugandispo or, better yet, plygandespo, pronounced like the "english" but with an o on the end and a different but still lax vowel before the ''sp''. It also doesn't justify the l coming before the b.
====  Proposed Keywords ====
*** If you need to make such trivial criticisms, brush up on your morphology rules. You can't use the letter ''y'' in a fu'ivla. ''gabliku'' is a tosmabru. And guess what? It '''doesn't matter''' if it's ''plugandispo'' or ''plagndispo'', or ''glorkena'' or ''glorkte''! It '''doesn't mean anything!''' The second sentence above is fine; this is a silly sentence being translated, not the Bible. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]] (who didn't write the sentence)


**** I think that because it is meaningless, we shouldn't try to translate it. However, if we must, we should capture the same nonsense that the author intended, for otherwise we might as well just make our own. Therefore I hold transliteration of nonsense words to a relatively higher standard than that of most fu'ivla, but at the same time I see this as a simple demonstration of the folly of type 4s. They expect someone familiar with the original sentence to recognize ''glorkena'', even context-free if the fu'ivla is to be more meaningful than a random collection of syllables, when glorkena sounds nothing like what it is a lojbanization of!
* 1st sumti place
***** For someone who thinks type 4's should never be used, you sure have a lot of suggestions about how they should be used. And you still seem to be missing the point that these particular fu'ivla ''are'' supposed to be only as meaningful as a random collection of syllables. Even so the Lojban version can stand on its own without it mattering what the English version sounds like, precisely because of the glorking that it describes.


***** I would like type 4s if they didn't mangle the original word to the point of no return. I have ''never'' complained about fu'ivla that someone familiar with the original could recognize. It's just that they never are, and we can't even do it with nonsense! Thus I propose ''dei poi bridrgubliki cu vasru so'i to'e kaursklarke lojbo vlarflutspa .iku'i le banli smunrplugandespi ka'e se jimprglorke vega'a le valsi vanbi''. This unfortunately loses the nonsense aspect - which could be preserved by using nonexistant gisms - but if you look at the post-hyphen part the fu'ivla are closer. Gubblick: galbiku/gubliki, (non)sklarkish: nalysklarko/na'e sklarke, flutzpah: flutspa/flutspa, pluggandisp: plagndispo/plugandespi, glork: glorkena/glorke. As for it already being nonsense, it is nonsense that has come to have a meaning. Even Jabberwocky had many of the words defined later ('twas 4:00, and the lithe and slimy (type of sundial-dwelling creature) did spin and make little holes in the grass around the sundial. All flimsy and miserable were the (type of bird), and the lost green pigs made a sound like a bellow and a whistle, with a sneeze in the middle). If you want Moser's nonsense, with the meaning that has been given to glork, keep it recognizable as containing the word glork. If not, make up your own nonsense rather than trying to translate it. Since it will not stay recognizable, [[jbocre: random sentence generator ets make up new nonsense|random sentence generator ets make up new nonsense]].
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;i crane abu fa lo drata ke clani vorme: before A there was a different long door
 
====  Notes ====
 
See the notes section at the bottom of this document.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fe (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
2nd sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 2nd sumti place
 
====  See Also ====
 
* se
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* 2nd sumti place
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;la uorygl cpacu lo rundegji pe lo fonxa gi'e pencu fi lo rundegji fe la .aipad.: woggle gets a phone stylus and touches Ipod with the stylus.
 
====  Notes ====
 
See the notes section at the bottom of this document.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fi (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
3rd sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 3rd sumti place
 
====  See Also ====
 
* te
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* 3rd sumti place
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;mi klama fi lo ckule: I come from school.
 
====  Notes ====
 
See the notes section at the bottom of this document.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fo (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
4th sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 4th sumti place
 
====  See Also ====
 
* ve
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* 4th sumti place
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;mi nitcu lonu tavla fo la lojban: I need to talk Lojban!
 
====  Notes ====
 
See the notes section at the bottom of this document.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fu (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
5th sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 5th sumti place
 
====  See Also ====
 
* xe
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* 5th sumti place
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;benji fu lo karce: Delivery by car.
 
====  Notes ====
 
See the notes section at the bottom of this document.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fai (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
extra sumti place -- tag a sumti switched from x1 by jai.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* jai
* fa
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
extra sumti place
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ma jai ta'i jukpa fai mi .ei: By what method should I cook?
 
====  Notes ====
 
* The CLL does not mention, how fai behaves in a sentence without a jai conversion.
* The gismu list doesn't contain an entry for fai, but it should, with rafsi "fax".
 
----
 
===  cmavo: jai (JAI) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
modal conversion. convert tense/modal (tagged) place to 1st place.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fai
* se
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* modal conversion
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;lo jai gau fagri: The firestarter.
 
;.i mi gleki lo nu la seryf. ba jai gau jufra ti'e: I'm happy seryf's going to do a sentence (i hear).
 
;pe'i denpa bu na'e sidju gi'e jai cfipu po'o: The dot doesn't help, but only confuse.
 
====  Notes ====
 
* The original 1st place moves to the jai place.
* By not putting a modal after jai, an abstraction is put into the fai place and the x1 spot becomes a sumti "raised" from that abstraction (thus letting you put any sumti where the place structure requires an abstraction).
 
====  Issues ====
 
* CLL claims that -jax- is a rafsi for jai, but none of the wordlists include it.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: fi'a (FA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
sumti place question. ask what place the sumti goes into.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fa
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* sumti place question
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;i doi timos do zmanei fi'a lo'u ko jimpe le'u fi'a lo'u jimpe fa ko le'u vau pei: Hey timo, do you prefer "you, understand!" or "understand, you!"? How do you feel about that?
 
====  Notes ====
 
* fi'a will not influence counting like fa, fe, fi, fo or fu.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: se (SE) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
2nd conversion -- 2nd conversion; switch 1st/2nd places --
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fe
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
2nd conversion
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;i caku mi se tolplo tai tu'a lo'e brarai darvistci: now i'm extended like the longest telescope
 
;.i fukpi lo remna lo se kelci:It's a copy of a human as a toy.
 
;mi sipna djica seki'u lo nu klama lo zdani: I want to sleep, so I'm going home.
 
;mi se melbi do se .u lo mensi be do: You're pretty--well, maybe not you, but your sister is.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: te (SE) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
3rd conversion -- 3rd conversion; switch 1st/3rd places --
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fi
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
3rd conversion
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;di'a jundi te zu'e lo nu citka .i co'o: I'll be right back, I'm going to eat. bye!
 
;lo te salci be lo nu prami cu pluka lo na prami na .e nai lo na se prami: Valentine's day is unpleasant to neither those who don't love nor those who aren't loved.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: ve (SE) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
4th conversion -- 4th conversion; switch 1st/4th places --
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fo
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
4th conversion
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ca tadni lo cmaci be lo ve mipri: studying cryptography.
 
----
 
===  cmavo: xe (SE) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
5th conversion -- 5th conversion; switch 1st/5th places --
 
====  See Also ====
 
* fu
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
5th conversion
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;.i ma jbobau xe fanva zoi .gy. ecstasy .gy.: What's the lojbanic translation of "ecstasy"?
 
----
 
==  General Section Notes ==
 
===  On fa, fe, fi, fo and fu ===
 
====  In combination with xi ====
 
Tagging one of fa, fe, fi, fo or fu with xi and a number turns the FA into "tag the nth sumti place".
 
====  Resume counting, skipping places ====
 
* Normally, sumti places start with either 1, or 2 (if the first sumti comes after the selbri) and after each sumti, the next place is filled. If the number of places of the selbri is reached, all the next places have an implicit do'e tag.
* When a sumti place is already filled (for instance, if a FA was used to jump back), that place is 'skipped'
 
* fai will not affect the numbering of places around it.
* Places continue from where the tag left off (i.e. fu ko'a ko'e - fills x5 and x6 respectively).
 
====  Using a place multiple times ====
 
* Assigning two sumti to the same place directly is like connecting the two sumti with 'e' and putting the result in that place.
 
====  Examples ====
 
* da citka de di  ~= fa da cikta fe de do'e di (count from one, cikta only has x1 and x2)
* klama de ~= klama fe de (count from two, as the first sumti comes after the selbri)
 
* klama de fa da di ~= klama fe de fa da fi di (do not "overwrite" the second place. skip to the third instead)
* mi klama fa do ~= fa mi e do klama (assigning two sumti to the same place connects them together)
 
* mi klama fa xi mu da ~= mi klama fu da (using xi to turn fa into "tag 5th sumti" (which is the same as fu]
* mi klama fu lo karce da ~= mi klama fu lo karce do'e da
 
==  Impact ==

Revision as of 16:45, 4 November 2013

Proposed Definitions And Examples

cmavo: fa (FA)

Proposed Definition

1st sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 1st sumti place

See Also

  • jai

Proposed Keywords

  • 1st sumti place

Usage Examples

i crane abu fa lo drata ke clani vorme
before A there was a different long door

Notes

See the notes section at the bottom of this document.

cmavo: fe (FA)

Proposed Definition

2nd sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 2nd sumti place

See Also

  • se

Proposed Keywords

  • 2nd sumti place

Usage Examples

la uorygl cpacu lo rundegji pe lo fonxa gi'e pencu fi lo rundegji fe la .aipad.
woggle gets a phone stylus and touches Ipod with the stylus.

Notes

See the notes section at the bottom of this document.

cmavo: fi (FA)

Proposed Definition

3rd sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 3rd sumti place

See Also

  • te

Proposed Keywords

  • 3rd sumti place

Usage Examples

mi klama fi lo ckule
I come from school.

Notes

See the notes section at the bottom of this document.

cmavo: fo (FA)

Proposed Definition

4th sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 4th sumti place

See Also

  • ve

Proposed Keywords

  • 4th sumti place

Usage Examples

mi nitcu lonu tavla fo la lojban
I need to talk Lojban!

Notes

See the notes section at the bottom of this document.

cmavo: fu (FA)

Proposed Definition

5th sumti place -- sumti place tag: tag 5th sumti place

See Also

  • xe

Proposed Keywords

  • 5th sumti place

Usage Examples

benji fu lo karce
Delivery by car.

Notes

See the notes section at the bottom of this document.

cmavo: fai (FA)

Proposed Definition

extra sumti place -- tag a sumti switched from x1 by jai.

See Also

  • jai
  • fa

Proposed Keywords

extra sumti place

Usage Examples

ma jai ta'i jukpa fai mi .ei
By what method should I cook?

Notes

  • The CLL does not mention, how fai behaves in a sentence without a jai conversion.
  • The gismu list doesn't contain an entry for fai, but it should, with rafsi "fax".

cmavo: jai (JAI)

Proposed Definition

modal conversion. convert tense/modal (tagged) place to 1st place.

See Also

  • fai
  • se

Proposed Keywords

  • modal conversion

Usage Examples

lo jai gau fagri
The firestarter.
.i mi gleki lo nu la seryf. ba jai gau jufra ti'e
I'm happy seryf's going to do a sentence (i hear).
pe'i denpa bu na'e sidju gi'e jai cfipu po'o
The dot doesn't help, but only confuse.

Notes

  • The original 1st place moves to the jai place.
  • By not putting a modal after jai, an abstraction is put into the fai place and the x1 spot becomes a sumti "raised" from that abstraction (thus letting you put any sumti where the place structure requires an abstraction).

Issues

  • CLL claims that -jax- is a rafsi for jai, but none of the wordlists include it.

cmavo: fi'a (FA)

Proposed Definition

sumti place question. ask what place the sumti goes into.

See Also

  • fa

Proposed Keywords

  • sumti place question

Usage Examples

i doi timos do zmanei fi'a lo'u ko jimpe le'u fi'a lo'u jimpe fa ko le'u vau pei
Hey timo, do you prefer "you, understand!" or "understand, you!"? How do you feel about that?

Notes

  • fi'a will not influence counting like fa, fe, fi, fo or fu.

cmavo: se (SE)

Proposed Definition

2nd conversion -- 2nd conversion; switch 1st/2nd places --

See Also

  • fe

Proposed Keywords

2nd conversion

Usage Examples

i caku mi se tolplo tai tu'a lo'e brarai darvistci
now i'm extended like the longest telescope
.i fukpi lo remna lo se kelci
It's a copy of a human as a toy.
mi sipna djica seki'u lo nu klama lo zdani
I want to sleep, so I'm going home.
mi se melbi do se .u lo mensi be do
You're pretty--well, maybe not you, but your sister is.

cmavo: te (SE)

Proposed Definition

3rd conversion -- 3rd conversion; switch 1st/3rd places --

See Also

  • fi

Proposed Keywords

3rd conversion

Usage Examples

di'a jundi te zu'e lo nu citka .i co'o
I'll be right back, I'm going to eat. bye!
lo te salci be lo nu prami cu pluka lo na prami na .e nai lo na se prami
Valentine's day is unpleasant to neither those who don't love nor those who aren't loved.

cmavo: ve (SE)

Proposed Definition

4th conversion -- 4th conversion; switch 1st/4th places --

See Also

  • fo

Proposed Keywords

4th conversion

Usage Examples

ca tadni lo cmaci be lo ve mipri
studying cryptography.

cmavo: xe (SE)

Proposed Definition

5th conversion -- 5th conversion; switch 1st/5th places --

See Also

  • fu

Proposed Keywords

5th conversion

Usage Examples

.i ma jbobau xe fanva zoi .gy. ecstasy .gy.
What's the lojbanic translation of "ecstasy"?

General Section Notes

On fa, fe, fi, fo and fu

In combination with xi

Tagging one of fa, fe, fi, fo or fu with xi and a number turns the FA into "tag the nth sumti place".

Resume counting, skipping places

  • Normally, sumti places start with either 1, or 2 (if the first sumti comes after the selbri) and after each sumti, the next place is filled. If the number of places of the selbri is reached, all the next places have an implicit do'e tag.
  • When a sumti place is already filled (for instance, if a FA was used to jump back), that place is 'skipped'
  • fai will not affect the numbering of places around it.
  • Places continue from where the tag left off (i.e. fu ko'a ko'e - fills x5 and x6 respectively).

Using a place multiple times

  • Assigning two sumti to the same place directly is like connecting the two sumti with 'e' and putting the result in that place.

Examples

  • da citka de di ~= fa da cikta fe de do'e di (count from one, cikta only has x1 and x2)
  • klama de ~= klama fe de (count from two, as the first sumti comes after the selbri)
  • klama de fa da di ~= klama fe de fa da fi di (do not "overwrite" the second place. skip to the third instead)
  • mi klama fa do ~= fa mi e do klama (assigning two sumti to the same place connects them together)
  • mi klama fa xi mu da ~= mi klama fu da (using xi to turn fa into "tag 5th sumti" (which is the same as fu]
  • mi klama fu lo karce da ~= mi klama fu lo karce do'e da

Impact

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