BPFK Section: Irrealis Attitudinals: Difference between revisions

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=== Proposed definitions ===


See also [[jbocre: Lojban Ideography|Lojban Ideography]]
;'''.a'i '''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express effort / endeavor / exertion / labor / pains / strife / toil. (cf. troci, gunka, slunandu, selprogunka, fu'i nai)


==== Latin ====
.a'i mi ze'a ba ralte


*A [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]]-compatible orthography for the purposes of rapproachment with the [[TLI|TLI]] has been proposed: [http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9602/msg00071.html] . Since the rapproachment never eventuated, the proposal is in limbo.
<br />  ''I'm trying to hold it!''
*[[jbocre: And Rosta|And Rosta]] is notorious for using (''but only prior to the baseline and publication of [[jbocre: Codex Woldemar oldy|Codex Woldemar oldy]]!'') and [[User:Mark Shoulson|Mark Shoulson]] is still sympathetic to, [[jbocre: apostropheless alternative orthographies|apostropheless alternative orthographies]].


*It's been proposed to use acute accent marks instead of those ugly capitals in order to mark stress. It's not ASCII, but it's still Latin-1. '''I assume you mean one of { ` }?'''
.a'i mi ba gasnu lo nu do cikna binxo
** Accute = /; grave = \.


*[[jbocre: Capitals as letter names|Capitals as letter names]]
<br /> ''It'll be hard for me to wake you up.''
*How about [[jbocre: Lojban calligraphy|Lojban calligraphy]]?


==== Extant Scripts ====
;'''.a'i cu'i'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express effortlessness / ease / facility / no special effort (cf. selfrili, fu'i)


*[[jbocre: The Book|The Book]] describes a Cyrillic orthography for Lojban, devised by [[jbocre: Ivan Derzhanski|Ivan Derzhanski]]. The equivalences are as you'd expect; ''y'' is represented by the hard sign (as in Bulgarian).  As originally designed, ' was represented by the soft sign, but in the Book ' is used unchanged.  Period and comma are also unchanged.
.a'i cu'i ti frili
*Adam & .aulun. have given us a [[jbocre: Hebrew Orthography|Hebrew Orthography]] finally based on Yiddish writing conventions (proving to be best for Lojban).


*I propose an [[jbocre: Arabic Orthography|Arabic Orthography]] -- mi'e filip.
<br />  ''Ah, this is easy.''
** ( one is documented [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/1fe6b70c875c3a2b here] )


*[[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] has written an orthography for [[jbocre: estrangela|estrangela]].
;'''.a'i nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express repose / inaction / inactivity / passivity / lackadaisicalness / indolence(cf. toltoi, cando, guksurla)
*A [[jbocre: Katakana Orthography|Katakana Orthography]] is being mooted.


*About to lose his last sense for rationality, .aulun.'s pondering about a [[jbocre: Hiragana|Hiragana]] script for Lojban. :(
.a'i nai cikre ta
**How about mixing Katakana and Hiragana? (!) -- [email protected]


*While we're having fun with strange scripts, how about a [[jbocre: Mongolian|Mongolian]] orthography?
<br />  ''Nah, why bother fixing it.''
*Speaking of Mongolian, here's another [http://www.angelfire.com/folk/sm0p/lojban-bithe.html ongol orthography.]


**(To be precise, it's a [[jbocre: Manchu orthography|Manchu orthography]].)
;'''.ai''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express intent / intentionality / purpose / design  (cf. zukte, platu)
*And there's also a [[jbocre: Devanagari orthography|Devanagari orthography]] now.


*Perhaps we should try a [[jbocre: Hangul|Hangul]] orthography.
.ai mi ze'e ba jmive<br />
**Eek, you just beat me to suggesting it!


**Sorry! [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/smileys/4.gif]
''I intend to live forever.''
*How's about a [[jbocre: Georgian Orthography|Georgian Orthography]]?


*[[jbocre: jbopomofo|jbopomofo]]
.ai le mi cukta do sidju gi'e pacnygau<br />


==== Fictional Scripts ====
''I intend for my book to give you help and hope.''


*The [http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/relipper/tolkien/rootpage.html olkien] script [http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/index.htm engwar] has been [[jbocre: Tengwar roposed as another way of writing Lojban|Tengwar roposed as another way of writing Lojban]]. The proposal originally came from prominent ex-Lojbanist [http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/ ric Raymond], which has made its repute spread far and wide.
;'''.ai cu'i''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indecision / hesitation / vacillation / wavering.
**'''[[jbocre: Why Tengwar?]]''' <- [[jbocre: discussion on whether this is a Good Thing|discussion on whether this is a Good Thing]]


*The [[jbocre: Apollonian alphabet|Apollonian alphabet]] has also been proposed.
.ai cu'i mi ti ba te vecnu<br />
*[[jbocre: pne|pne]] have also played around with a [[jbocre: Verdurian orthography|Verdurian orthography]].


See also [[jbocre: Technical Issues With Alternate Orthographies|Technical Issues With Alternate Orthographies]].
''I don't know whether I'll purchase these or not.''


==== Original Scripts ====
;'''.ai nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express non-intent / unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness. (cf. selsnuti)


*[[jbocre: Original lojban orthography roposal for a totally original orthography for lojban|Original lojban orthography roposal for a totally original orthography for lojban]]
.ai nai mi gunka ca le pavdei<br />
*Lindar's [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9a0a9c276e6f8f1f arlermorna]


*[https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AiofPj-7nZpwdHppa3oxU2hGUDdQSWxmZDhaWTdBaUE&hl=en&authkey=CJyrpOQD tino's version]] of [http://www.ccelian.com/ElianScriptFull.html lian script]
''I'm not planning to work on Monday.''


==== Related silliness ====
.ai nai mi jmina lo valsi poi mi finti<br />


* [[jbocre: R2D2 Lojban]]
''I don't mean to add words of my own devising.''
* [[jbocre: Proper Lojban Orthography|Proper Lojban Orthography]]
 
.ai nai do pu se xrani<br />
 
''I didn't mean for you to get hurt.''
 
;'''.au''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express desire / wish / yearning / aspiration. (cf. djica)
 
.au lo tricu cu krati lo ro se genja gi'e sfasa lo kusru be gy<br />
 
''Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!''
 
;'''.au cu'i''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indifference / apathy / disinterest. (cf. nordji)
 
.au cu'i makau jinga<br />
 
''I don't really care who wins.''
 
;'''.au nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express reluctance / averseness / disinclination. (cf. toldji)
 
.au nai mi cliva<br />
 
''I'm reluctant to leave.''
 
;'''.a'o''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express hope / longing. (cf. pacna)
 
.a'o le nobli cu gidva lo se zukte be mi<br />
 
''Oh, that the Lord would guide my ways.''
 
;'''.a'o nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express despair / hopelessness / dread / fear that a situation ensues. (cf. tolpacna)
 
.a'o nai ro da ca se cirko<br />
 
''Everything will be lost now.''
 
;'''.ei''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express obligation / how things ought to be. (cf. bilga) 
 
.ei mi cliva co'o<br />
 
''Gotta go now, bye!''
 
.ei le jatna cu ckeji<br />
 
''The president ought to be ashamed.''
 
.ei do djuno<br />
 
''You ought to know.''
 
;'''.ei nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express  freedom / lack of obligation / how things need not be. (cf. zifre)
 
.ei nai do tolnurcni<br />
 
''You don't have to feel threatened.''
 
;'''.e'a''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to permit / allow / grant permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. curmi) 
 
.e'a do tsebi'o<br />
 
''You may sit down.''
 
;'''.e'a nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to prohibit / forbid / deny permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. tolcru)
 
.e'a nai do ti stali<br />
 
''You can't stay here.''
 
;'''.e'e''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to exhort / incite / motivate / encourage / entreat / stimulate / challenge / dare / provoke / invite competition. (cf. talsa)
 
.e'e ko jarco lo se kakne be do<br />
 
''Show them what you can do! Go for it!''
 
.e'e mi do bajra jivna fe'e co'u le karce<br />
 
''I'll race you to the car!''
 
;'''.e'e nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discourage / intimidate / demoralize / deprecate / dampen / bridle / avoid / dodge / elude / duck / evade / back off / withdraw. (cf. zunti, dicra)
 
.e'e nai doi nelis<br />
 
''Whoa, Nelly!''
 
.e'e nai mi bilga lo nu zukte lo drata<br />
 
''Sorry, I have other things to do.''
 
;'''.e'i''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to command / dictate / instruct / order / oblige / constrain / impose an obligation.  (cf. minde, ri'urgau)
 
.e'i ko ta mi dunda<br />
 
''Give that to me!''
 
;'''.e'i nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discharge / absolve / dismiss / exonerate / liberate / release / unbind / free of an obligation. (cf. zi'ergau)
 
.e'i nai ko zukte lo se djica be do<br />
 
''Do whatever you please!''
 
;'''.e'o''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to make a request. (cf. cpedu, pe'u)
 
.e'o do dunda le silna mi<br />
 
''Can you pass me the salt, please?''
 
;'''.e'o nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to grant / cede / proffer / make an offer. (cf. friti)
 
.e'o nai ko lebna lo titla<br />
 
''Here, have some candy.''
 
;'''.e'u''' (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to suggest / persuade / advise. (cf. stidi)
 
.e'u mi'o salci<br />
 
''Let's party!''
 
;'''.e'u nai''' (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to dissuade / warn / disadvise. (cf. kajde, o'i)
 
.e'u nai do kargau le moklu<br />
 
''You better not open your mouth.''
 
;'''ia'''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express belief / conviction / faith / certainty (cf. krici, birti, jinvi)
 
ia lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''Indeed God exists.''
 
;'''ia cu'i'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express skepticism / doubt / agnosticism / uncertainty. (cf. senpi)
 
ia cu'i lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''Hmm ... God may or may not exist.''
 
;'''ia nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disbelief / incredulity / rejection (cf. tolkri)
 
ia nai lo cevni cu zasti<br />
 
''I don't believe God exists.''
 
;'''ie'''  (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express agreement / concordance / accord / concurrence. (cf. tugni)
 
ie ta melbi<br />
 
''Yes, that's beautiful.''
 
;'''ie nai'''  (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disagreement / dissent / contention / difference / argument. (cf. toltu'i)
 
ie nai go'i<br />
 
''I disagree with that.''
 
=== Notes ===
 
* The definitions of ''e'e'' and ''e'i'' are based on a very loose interpretation of some of the keywords, so that they fit the e-series, which in all other cases expresses the speaker's attitude towards the audience's bringing about some situation.
 
* '''ai nai''' changed from rejection / refusal (which is '''i'a nai''') to unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness.
 
* '''e'o nai''' "make an offer", instead of "negative request"?
** I have no idea what a "negative request" is. I do, however, see how "offer" is a negative of "request". - .aionys.
 
* '''e'u cu'i''' "abandon suggestion"?
 
* selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good.  The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have.
 
===  Section Issues ===
 
* Recent discussions have brought up the question of whether a realis/irrealis dichotomy makes sense at all, or whether all bridi are implicitly semi-realis, with some attitudinals leading to stronger implications one way or the other. Public opinion seems to be in favor of removing the split. If so, the definitions may need to be tweaked to make this more clear. If not, then someone needs to speak up in defense of the split.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/dc6bb04a6f9167f3 The realis/irrealis distinction] has been rather hotly debated over the years. It is my ( Lindar ) opinion that the reality/irreality of the UI is dependent upon the reality/irreality of the jufra, and can be indicated with da'i/da'inai or some other kind of marker. This way ''ni'o .a'o mi klama'' can mean ''I hope I go.'' in one instance and ''I'm going, about which I feel hopeful.'' for another, rather than being restricted to one meaning.
 
=== Poll ===
 
{POLL(pollId=>24)}BPFK Poll: Irrealis Attitudinals{POLL}

Revision as of 16:44, 4 November 2013

Proposed definitions

.a'i (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express effort / endeavor / exertion / labor / pains / strife / toil. (cf. troci, gunka, slunandu, selprogunka, fu'i nai)

.a'i mi ze'a ba ralte


I'm trying to hold it!

.a'i mi ba gasnu lo nu do cikna binxo


It'll be hard for me to wake you up.

.a'i cu'i (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express effortlessness / ease / facility / no special effort (cf. selfrili, fu'i)

.a'i cu'i ti frili


Ah, this is easy.

.a'i nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express repose / inaction / inactivity / passivity / lackadaisicalness / indolence(cf. toltoi, cando, guksurla)

.a'i nai cikre ta


Nah, why bother fixing it.

.ai (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express intent / intentionality / purpose / design (cf. zukte, platu)

.ai mi ze'e ba jmive

I intend to live forever.

.ai le mi cukta do sidju gi'e pacnygau

I intend for my book to give you help and hope.

.ai cu'i (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express indecision / hesitation / vacillation / wavering.

.ai cu'i mi ti ba te vecnu

I don't know whether I'll purchase these or not.

.ai nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express non-intent / unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness. (cf. selsnuti)

.ai nai mi gunka ca le pavdei

I'm not planning to work on Monday.

.ai nai mi jmina lo valsi poi mi finti

I don't mean to add words of my own devising.

.ai nai do pu se xrani

I didn't mean for you to get hurt.

.au (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express desire / wish / yearning / aspiration. (cf. djica)

.au lo tricu cu krati lo ro se genja gi'e sfasa lo kusru be gy

Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!

.au cu'i (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express indifference / apathy / disinterest. (cf. nordji)

.au cu'i makau jinga

I don't really care who wins.

.au nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express reluctance / averseness / disinclination. (cf. toldji)

.au nai mi cliva

I'm reluctant to leave.

.a'o (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express hope / longing. (cf. pacna)

.a'o le nobli cu gidva lo se zukte be mi

Oh, that the Lord would guide my ways.

.a'o nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express despair / hopelessness / dread / fear that a situation ensues. (cf. tolpacna)

.a'o nai ro da ca se cirko

Everything will be lost now.

.ei (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express obligation / how things ought to be. (cf. bilga)

.ei mi cliva co'o

Gotta go now, bye!

.ei le jatna cu ckeji

The president ought to be ashamed.

.ei do djuno

You ought to know.

.ei nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express freedom / lack of obligation / how things need not be. (cf. zifre)

.ei nai do tolnurcni

You don't have to feel threatened.

.e'a (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to permit / allow / grant permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. curmi)

.e'a do tsebi'o

You may sit down.

.e'a nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to prohibit / forbid / deny permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. tolcru)

.e'a nai do ti stali

You can't stay here.

.e'e (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to exhort / incite / motivate / encourage / entreat / stimulate / challenge / dare / provoke / invite competition. (cf. talsa)

.e'e ko jarco lo se kakne be do

Show them what you can do! Go for it!

.e'e mi do bajra jivna fe'e co'u le karce

I'll race you to the car!

.e'e nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to discourage / intimidate / demoralize / deprecate / dampen / bridle / avoid / dodge / elude / duck / evade / back off / withdraw. (cf. zunti, dicra)

.e'e nai doi nelis

Whoa, Nelly!

.e'e nai mi bilga lo nu zukte lo drata

Sorry, I have other things to do.

.e'i (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to command / dictate / instruct / order / oblige / constrain / impose an obligation. (cf. minde, ri'urgau)

.e'i ko ta mi dunda

Give that to me!

.e'i nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to discharge / absolve / dismiss / exonerate / liberate / release / unbind / free of an obligation. (cf. zi'ergau)

.e'i nai ko zukte lo se djica be do

Do whatever you please!

.e'o (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to make a request. (cf. cpedu, pe'u)

.e'o do dunda le silna mi

Can you pass me the salt, please?

.e'o nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to grant / cede / proffer / make an offer. (cf. friti)

.e'o nai ko lebna lo titla

Here, have some candy.

.e'u (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to suggest / persuade / advise. (cf. stidi)

.e'u mi'o salci

Let's party!

.e'u nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to dissuade / warn / disadvise. (cf. kajde, o'i)

.e'u nai do kargau le moklu

You better not open your mouth.

ia (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express belief / conviction / faith / certainty (cf. krici, birti, jinvi)

ia lo cevni cu zasti

Indeed God exists.

ia cu'i (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express skepticism / doubt / agnosticism / uncertainty. (cf. senpi)

ia cu'i lo cevni cu zasti

Hmm ... God may or may not exist.

ia nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express disbelief / incredulity / rejection (cf. tolkri)

ia nai lo cevni cu zasti

I don't believe God exists.

ie (UI1)
Attitudinal. Used to express agreement / concordance / accord / concurrence. (cf. tugni)

ie ta melbi

Yes, that's beautiful.

ie nai (UI*1)
Attitudinal. Used to express disagreement / dissent / contention / difference / argument. (cf. toltu'i)

ie nai go'i

I disagree with that.

Notes

  • The definitions of e'e and e'i are based on a very loose interpretation of some of the keywords, so that they fit the e-series, which in all other cases expresses the speaker's attitude towards the audience's bringing about some situation.
  • ai nai changed from rejection / refusal (which is i'a nai) to unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness.
  • e'o nai "make an offer", instead of "negative request"?
    • I have no idea what a "negative request" is. I do, however, see how "offer" is a negative of "request". - .aionys.
  • e'u cu'i "abandon suggestion"?
  • selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good. The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have.

Section Issues

  • Recent discussions have brought up the question of whether a realis/irrealis dichotomy makes sense at all, or whether all bridi are implicitly semi-realis, with some attitudinals leading to stronger implications one way or the other. Public opinion seems to be in favor of removing the split. If so, the definitions may need to be tweaked to make this more clear. If not, then someone needs to speak up in defense of the split.

The realis/irrealis distinction has been rather hotly debated over the years. It is my ( Lindar ) opinion that the reality/irreality of the UI is dependent upon the reality/irreality of the jufra, and can be indicated with da'i/da'inai or some other kind of marker. This way ni'o .a'o mi klama can mean I hope I go. in one instance and I'm going, about which I feel hopeful. for another, rather than being restricted to one meaning.

Poll

{POLL(pollId=>24)}BPFK Poll: Irrealis Attitudinals{POLL}