Difference between revisions of "BPFK Section: Abstractors"

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From [[BPFK Section: Grammatical Pro-sumti]], since moved here:
 
From [[BPFK Section: Grammatical Pro-sumti]], since moved here:
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''du'u'' ===
+
=== du'u (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''du'u'' ====
  
 
;'''du'u''' (NU): abstractor: predication/bridi abstractor; x1 is predication [[bridi|bridi]] expressed in sentence x2.
 
;'''du'u''' (NU): abstractor: predication/bridi abstractor; x1 is predication [[bridi|bridi]] expressed in sentence x2.
  
===  Examples of ''du'u'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''du'u'' Usage ====
  
 
mi djuno lo du'u la'e di'u<br />
 
mi djuno lo du'u la'e di'u<br />
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The former assumes that it's using QWERTY.<br />
 
The former assumes that it's using QWERTY.<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''ka'' ===
+
=== ka (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''ka'' ====
  
 
;'''ka''' (NU): abstractor: property/quality abstractor (-ness); x1 is quality/property exhibited by [[bridi|bridi]].
 
;'''ka''' (NU): abstractor: property/quality abstractor (-ness); x1 is quality/property exhibited by [[bridi|bridi]].
  
===  Examples of ''ka'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''ka'' Usage ====
  
 
i lo tixnu be mi ca lo prulamdei cu kelci lo gunka jadni bo karda je jaspu pe mi .i seri'abo mi puze'a na kakne lo nu facki lo ka se diklo kei jy va'o lo nu mi na djuno lo nu go'i .oi u'anai<br />
 
i lo tixnu be mi ca lo prulamdei cu kelci lo gunka jadni bo karda je jaspu pe mi .i seri'abo mi puze'a na kakne lo nu facki lo ka se diklo kei jy va'o lo nu mi na djuno lo nu go'i .oi u'anai<br />
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It's not very familiar to you, I believe.<br />
 
It's not very familiar to you, I believe.<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''li'i'' ===
+
=== li'i (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''li'i'' ====
  
 
;'''li'i''' (NU): abstractor: experience abstractor; x1 is x2's experience of [[bridi|bridi]] (participant or observer).
 
;'''li'i''' (NU): abstractor: experience abstractor; x1 is x2's experience of [[bridi|bridi]] (participant or observer).
  
===  Examples of ''li'i'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''li'i'' Usage ====
  
 
.i lo pluka ko li'i djedi<br />
 
.i lo pluka ko li'i djedi<br />
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"I'm happy that I've met you."<br />
 
"I'm happy that I've met you."<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''ni'' ===
+
=== ni (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''ni'' ====
  
 
;'''ni''' (NU): abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; x1 is quantity/amount of [[bridi|bridi]] measured on scale x2.
 
;'''ni''' (NU): abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; x1 is quantity/amount of [[bridi|bridi]] measured on scale x2.
  
===  Examples of ''ni'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''ni'' Usage ====
  
 
mi pu zu sampla fi lo nu mi sanji lo ni cafne fa lo nu mi pinxe lo djacu<br />
 
mi pu zu sampla fi lo nu mi sanji lo ni cafne fa lo nu mi pinxe lo djacu<br />
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A long time ago I programmed something that was meant to alert me to the frequency of my drinking water.<br />
 
A long time ago I programmed something that was meant to alert me to the frequency of my drinking water.<br />
  
===  notes ===
+
====  notes ====
  
 
(bad jbo, worse translation, but usage matches up with use suggested in section issues)
 
(bad jbo, worse translation, but usage matches up with use suggested in section issues)
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''nu'' ===
+
=== nu (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''nu'' ====
  
 
;'''nu''' (NU): abstractor: generalized event abstractor; x1 is state/process/achievement/activity of [[bridi|bridi]].
 
;'''nu''' (NU): abstractor: generalized event abstractor; x1 is state/process/achievement/activity of [[bridi|bridi]].
  
===  Examples of ''nu'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''nu'' Usage ====
  
 
do na kakne lo nu catra mi<br />
 
do na kakne lo nu catra mi<br />
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Lindar wants to see Timo dance.<br />
 
Lindar wants to see Timo dance.<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''si'o'' ===
+
=== si'o (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''si'o'' ====
  
 
;'''si'o''' (NU): abstractor: idea/concept abstractor; x1 is x2's concept of [[bridi|bridi]].
 
;'''si'o''' (NU): abstractor: idea/concept abstractor; x1 is x2's concept of [[bridi|bridi]].
  
===  Examples of ''si'o'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''si'o'' Usage ====
  
 
lo si'o racli cu na klina sidbo<br />
 
lo si'o racli cu na klina sidbo<br />
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The idea of utility is pertinent to people whether or not the idea of people being useful is evil.<br />
 
The idea of utility is pertinent to people whether or not the idea of people being useful is evil.<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''su'u'' ===
+
=== su'u (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''su'u'' ====
  
 
;'''su'u''' (NU): abstractor: generalized abstractor (how); x1 is [[bridi|bridi]] as a non-specific abstraction of type x2.
 
;'''su'u''' (NU): abstractor: generalized abstractor (how); x1 is [[bridi|bridi]] as a non-specific abstraction of type x2.
  
===  Examples of ''su'u'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''su'u'' Usage ====
  
 
.i lo su'u go'i cu zmadu lo nu casnu kei lo ka vajni (mild edit)<br />
 
.i lo su'u go'i cu zmadu lo nu casnu kei lo ka vajni (mild edit)<br />
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Could you help me out with using JVS, which is both new and beneficial (thank you!).<br />
 
Could you help me out with using JVS, which is both new and beneficial (thank you!).<br />
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''jei'' ===
+
=== jei (NU) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''jei'' ====
  
 
;'''jei''' (NU): abstractor: truth-value abstractor; x1 is truth value of [[bridi|bridi]] under epistemology x2.
 
;'''jei''' (NU): abstractor: truth-value abstractor; x1 is truth value of [[bridi|bridi]] under epistemology x2.
  
===  Examples of ''jei'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''jei'' Usage ====
  
 
le jei rigni cinse cu pabdu'i le jei cinri<br />
 
le jei rigni cinse cu pabdu'i le jei cinri<br />
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<br />
 
<br />
  
===  Issues ===
+
====  Issues ====
  
 
Ill-defined. Most examples in corpus are inconsistent in use, but replacement of du'u with jei seems to be one common use. Not sure of the intended meaning.
 
Ill-defined. Most examples in corpus are inconsistent in use, but replacement of du'u with jei seems to be one common use. Not sure of the intended meaning.
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* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/cb0ec5a194243570 recommending just to not use it at this point.]
 
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/cb0ec5a194243570 recommending just to not use it at this point.]
  
===  Proposed Definition of ''ce'u'' ===
+
=== ce'u (KOhA8) ===
 +
====  Proposed Definition of ''ce'u'' ====
  
 
;'''ce'u''' (KOhA8): Abstraction variable indicator. ''ce'u'' is a pro-sumti (meaning it takes the place of a fully-specified sumti).  ''ce'u'' indicates that the place it fills is considered to be a variable place that can be filled by other data.  ''ce'u'' makes sense only inside abstraction clauses.  In particular, ''ce'u'' is almost solely used in ''ka'', although ''si'o'', ''du'u'' and ''su'u'' clauses can make some sense with ''ce'u''.  ''ce'u'' basically means "this abstraction refers to a relationship in which the place(s) marked with ''ce'u'' can be filled as needed", so that ''lo ka ce'u broda'' is "the property of being/doing broda".  If a ''ka'' abstraction has no explicit ''ce'u'', the left-most unfilled space is assumed to contain an elided ''ce'u'', unless context strongly suggests that the ''ce'u'' should go in another place, or that there should be more than one.  In a ''si'o'' abstraction, all unfilled places are assumed to contain ''ce'u''.  In terms of the Lambda calculus, ce'u is both Lambda and a variable, i.e. Lambda(x).  Each new ce'u is a new variable.  To bind multiple places to the same Lambda variable, use ''ce'u goi ko'a'' or similar and scatter the bound variables as you like.  You can also use ''ce'u xi pa xi pa'' to refer to the first ''ce'u'' in the current bridi; increase the second ''pa'' for later ''ce'u'' in the current bridi.  You can also use ''ri'' and so on, or ''cy''.  In the case of nested abstractions, ''ce'u'' or ''ce'u xi pa'' is a normal, new ''ce'u'' variable, but ''ce'u xi re'' refers to the first ''ce'u'' in the next outer-most abstraction, and so on for higher numbers.  If there is more than one, use another ''xi'', so that ''ce'u xi re xi ci'' is the third ''ce'u'' in the next outer-most abstraction.
 
;'''ce'u''' (KOhA8): Abstraction variable indicator. ''ce'u'' is a pro-sumti (meaning it takes the place of a fully-specified sumti).  ''ce'u'' indicates that the place it fills is considered to be a variable place that can be filled by other data.  ''ce'u'' makes sense only inside abstraction clauses.  In particular, ''ce'u'' is almost solely used in ''ka'', although ''si'o'', ''du'u'' and ''su'u'' clauses can make some sense with ''ce'u''.  ''ce'u'' basically means "this abstraction refers to a relationship in which the place(s) marked with ''ce'u'' can be filled as needed", so that ''lo ka ce'u broda'' is "the property of being/doing broda".  If a ''ka'' abstraction has no explicit ''ce'u'', the left-most unfilled space is assumed to contain an elided ''ce'u'', unless context strongly suggests that the ''ce'u'' should go in another place, or that there should be more than one.  In a ''si'o'' abstraction, all unfilled places are assumed to contain ''ce'u''.  In terms of the Lambda calculus, ce'u is both Lambda and a variable, i.e. Lambda(x).  Each new ce'u is a new variable.  To bind multiple places to the same Lambda variable, use ''ce'u goi ko'a'' or similar and scatter the bound variables as you like.  You can also use ''ce'u xi pa xi pa'' to refer to the first ''ce'u'' in the current bridi; increase the second ''pa'' for later ''ce'u'' in the current bridi.  You can also use ''ri'' and so on, or ''cy''.  In the case of nested abstractions, ''ce'u'' or ''ce'u xi pa'' is a normal, new ''ce'u'' variable, but ''ce'u xi re'' refers to the first ''ce'u'' in the next outer-most abstraction, and so on for higher numbers.  If there is more than one, use another ''xi'', so that ''ce'u xi re xi ci'' is the third ''ce'u'' in the next outer-most abstraction.
  
===  Examples of ''ce'u'' Usage ===
+
====  Examples of ''ce'u'' Usage ====
  
 
la djan. cu zmadu la djordj. le ka ce'u prami mi
 
la djan. cu zmadu la djordj. le ka ce'u prami mi
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''However, nearby the rock is not excessive in the property of being hot.''
 
''However, nearby the rock is not excessive in the property of being hot.''
 +
  
 
==  Section issues. ==
 
==  Section issues. ==

Revision as of 01:51, 13 May 2018

From BPFK Section: Grammatical Pro-sumti, since moved here:

du'u (NU)

Proposed Definition of du'u

du'u (NU)
abstractor: predication/bridi abstractor; x1 is predication bridi expressed in sentence x2.

Examples of du'u Usage

mi djuno lo du'u la'e di'u

"I knew that."


.i le go'i ku sruma lo du'u pilno la'oi qwerty%%

The former assumes that it's using QWERTY.

ka (NU)

Proposed Definition of ka

ka (NU)
abstractor: property/quality abstractor (-ness); x1 is quality/property exhibited by bridi.

Examples of ka Usage

i lo tixnu be mi ca lo prulamdei cu kelci lo gunka jadni bo karda je jaspu pe mi .i seri'abo mi puze'a na kakne lo nu facki lo ka se diklo kei jy va'o lo nu mi na djuno lo nu go'i .oi u'anai

My daughter, yesterday, played with my working passport, which made it so I was unable to find it for a while.


.i .ia mutce lo ka milxe lo ka slabu do

It's not very familiar to you, I believe.

li'i (NU)

Proposed Definition of li'i

li'i (NU)
abstractor: experience abstractor; x1 is x2's experience of bridi (participant or observer).

Examples of li'i Usage

.i lo pluka ko li'i djedi

"Have a pleasant day."


mi gleki lo li'i penmi do

"I'm happy that I've met you."

ni (NU)

Proposed Definition of ni

ni (NU)
abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; x1 is quantity/amount of bridi measured on scale x2.

Examples of ni Usage

mi pu zu sampla fi lo nu mi sanji lo ni cafne fa lo nu mi pinxe lo djacu

A long time ago I programmed something that was meant to alert me to the frequency of my drinking water.

notes

(bad jbo, worse translation, but usage matches up with use suggested in section issues)

nu (NU)

Proposed Definition of nu

nu (NU)
abstractor: generalized event abstractor; x1 is state/process/achievement/activity of bridi.

Examples of nu Usage

do na kakne lo nu catra mi

You're not capable of killing me.


la .lindar. djica lo nu viska lo nu la .timos. dansu

Lindar wants to see Timo dance.

si'o (NU)

Proposed Definition of si'o

si'o (NU)
abstractor: idea/concept abstractor; x1 is x2's concept of bridi.

Examples of si'o Usage

lo si'o racli cu na klina sidbo

The idea of rationality is not a clear idea.


.i lo si'o plixau cu srana lo prenu .i ju lo si'o lo prenu cu plixau cu palci

The idea of utility is pertinent to people whether or not the idea of people being useful is evil.

su'u (NU)

Proposed Definition of su'u

su'u (NU)
abstractor: generalized abstractor (how); x1 is bridi as a non-specific abstraction of type x2.

Examples of su'u Usage

.i lo su'u go'i cu zmadu lo nu casnu kei lo ka vajni (mild edit)

That's definitely more important than conversing.


.i .e'o ko sarji lo su'u curmi loinu mi pilno la jbovlaste. noi cnino je xamgu to ki'esai toi

Could you help me out with using JVS, which is both new and beneficial (thank you!).

jei (NU)

Proposed Definition of jei

jei (NU)
abstractor: truth-value abstractor; x1 is truth value of bridi under epistemology x2.

Examples of jei Usage

le jei rigni cinse cu pabdu'i le jei cinri

How disgustingly sexual it seems is only fractionally equal to how interesting it is. (2002 usage)


.i mi kucli le jei mi nu'o gasnu le nu binxo

I'm curious about whether or not I am capable of becoming.


Issues

Ill-defined. Most examples in corpus are inconsistent in use, but replacement of du'u with jei seems to be one common use. Not sure of the intended meaning.

ce'u (KOhA8)

Proposed Definition of ce'u

ce'u (KOhA8)
Abstraction variable indicator. ce'u is a pro-sumti (meaning it takes the place of a fully-specified sumti). ce'u indicates that the place it fills is considered to be a variable place that can be filled by other data. ce'u makes sense only inside abstraction clauses. In particular, ce'u is almost solely used in ka, although si'o, du'u and su'u clauses can make some sense with ce'u. ce'u basically means "this abstraction refers to a relationship in which the place(s) marked with ce'u can be filled as needed", so that lo ka ce'u broda is "the property of being/doing broda". If a ka abstraction has no explicit ce'u, the left-most unfilled space is assumed to contain an elided ce'u, unless context strongly suggests that the ce'u should go in another place, or that there should be more than one. In a si'o abstraction, all unfilled places are assumed to contain ce'u. In terms of the Lambda calculus, ce'u is both Lambda and a variable, i.e. Lambda(x). Each new ce'u is a new variable. To bind multiple places to the same Lambda variable, use ce'u goi ko'a or similar and scatter the bound variables as you like. You can also use ce'u xi pa xi pa to refer to the first ce'u in the current bridi; increase the second pa for later ce'u in the current bridi. You can also use ri and so on, or cy. In the case of nested abstractions, ce'u or ce'u xi pa is a normal, new ce'u variable, but ce'u xi re refers to the first ce'u in the next outer-most abstraction, and so on for higher numbers. If there is more than one, use another xi, so that ce'u xi re xi ci is the third ce'u in the next outer-most abstraction.

Examples of ce'u Usage

la djan. cu zmadu la djordj. le ka ce'u prami mi

John is greater than George in the property of loving me.

la alis zenba le ka cfipu ce'u

Alice increases in the property being confused.

Confused by some situation unspecified.

ku'i viku le rokci cu na dukse leka ce'u glare

However, nearby the rock is not excessive in the property of being hot.


Section issues.

ni

mi'e .lindar.


Here are the 'salient points' of a conversation between myself and Robin regarding {ni}.


I didn't understand {ni} very well. In the example I remember, {lo ni la .frank. ciska}, it took that to mean "the quantity of Frank's writing" whereas in another example {lo ni blanu} is how blue something is. Didn't really make sense, because if we apply the same logic to either one, we get either "the amount of blue things" or "the written-ness of Frank". Robin then expressed that using {ni} to talk about cubic feet per minute of flow with {lo ni flecu} would be much more useful then how I was interpreting it, which was "number of rivers". I had pointed out that it seemed some uses had an implied {ka}, while others did not.


Mark had apparently opined on the situation, saying "{lo pixra cu cenba lo ni blanu}, is that it? trouble is, {lo ni blanu} is exactly equivalent to some number. So it's like saying {lo pixra cu cenba li pimu}. Same problem as {jei}, which is utterly useless because it doesn't work the way we expected it to.". Robin then said that I should point out that {xo kau} and {xu kau} are current fixes (how much and if/whether or not).


I had started to look at it under the assumption that {lo ni ce'u ciska} was "the amount of writers" and {lo ni ciska ce'u} was "the amount written" for the sake of the argument. However, we also considered what it would mean to encompass the whole bridi, like {nu} or {du'u}, per Robin's thoughts. However, continuing the first thought, we established that {ni blanu} is a number of blue things, and {ni ka blanu} is the amount of the quality of being blue (the blueness), which is what the CLL defined as {lo ni blanu}. Continuing under this idea, we looked for a way to express 'the amount of flow' and 'the distance gone'. At this point we turned to combining with {nu} to say {ni nu klama} is the distance and {ni nu flecu} was the flow, after considering many other NU. However, this didn't sit well. What is the x1 of {ni}, then? Is it a number? If so, must it be a counting number (i.e. a number of actual things)? Can it be something more general? Is an amount-abstract different from a simple number? We then realised that x2 of ni is the scale upon which it's measured. So my original idea was out, though it might be neat to have a word that -did- work that way. {lo XX la .frank. ciska ce'u} how much frank wrote, perhaps representing a numeric value. *{.i lo (??) la .frank. ciska ce'u vau kei ku xlali le kagni be mi be'o ku vau} "The amount frank has written is bad for my business.". This logic leads to {lo (??) ka blanu} being the same as the CLL example of {lo ni blanu} being "the amount of blueness".


Anyway...


Soooooooo...... {ni} seems to imply {ka}. So why not divorce the two? {lo ni ka ce'u blanu kei kei ku} would be the amount of blueness, or just -how blue- something is. ... and ... I have no clue what it would mean by itself. Perhaps {lo ni ce'u blanu kei ku} is the amount of blue things.


The other option would be to better define it as {x1 is the amount or degree to which ce'u is applicable to bridi on scale x2}. For example then, {lo ni ce'u blanu kei ku} is still the degree to which something is blue, but it doesn't seem to have an implied {ka} in there somewhere. So in the case of {lo ni blanu} we're talking about ... luminosity? Contrast? However, there's still that bit about ce'u. So... should it apply to the whole bridi? lo ni la .lindar. blanu ku - The degree to which Lindar is blue? (I'd rate it about a pi'enonononopa as I'm wearing a grey shirt with very short dark navy sleeves.)


So then we can address RLP's concern of flow. {lo ni flecu} is the degree to which something flows. We're measuring how applicable something is to the selbri, and using a particular scale. In the first case we put me up on a scale of colour (I'm really not sure what's used to measure a colour, but you get the point) to talk about lo ni la .lindar. blanu, but now we're talking about how applicable something is to being described as flowing. So in {lo ni la .daniub. flecu} I can only think of either a viscosity rating or litres/second, and flecu doesn't sound like/hint at/have anything to do with viscosity AFAIK.


Finally, let's address the -other- CLL example. {lo ni la .frank. ciska}


Well... crap... that doesn't make any sense without a {ce'u} in there. So how do we read this? Is it measuring the degree to which Frank is a writer? Well, rather than reading this as habitual action, let's just assume we're talking about the present. So what is the degree to which Frank is currently a writer. Well, we'd have to, like the first two examples, measure the output. In the first example, we measured the degree to which I was applicable to blue, or measuring myself on a scale of blue (contrast/luminosity). In the second we measured the degree to which the Danube applied to flowing, or the flow of the Danube, which is litres per second (or kilolitres per minute or whatever one would use to measure a river). Finally, we would measure the degree to which Frank is a writer by measuring on a scale of writing. X letters/words/sentences/paragraphs/pages per second/minute/hour/day/week/month/year.


The important thing to note is that the ce'u-less version (wherein x1 is the measure to which the bridi is applicable) seems to be the most useful as it allows to talk about the most number of intended things. {lo ni blanu} is the degree to which something is blue, {lo ni ciska} is the degree to which somebody is a writer. Perhaps I should be specific... Maybe we should be very specific and say that it's the degree to which the x1 is applicable? If we need a version with ce'u, perhaps combine with {ka}? I'm not sure of the utility, so I couldn't rightly say.


So now everybody is in agreement and I've saved Lojban forever.


(You may donate as much money as you like now.)

=D



In all seriousness, I like my painless version, but it seems to need stress-testing and wearing in. For example, I'm not exactly sure of the meaning of {lo ni la .frank. ciska xa lo so'e valsi}.

- Lindar ~ <3

ce'u

Does a place filled with "zo'e" count as filled for the purpose of figuring out the first unfilled place? Does a place filled with "FA ku" count? I say yes and yes. There may be other parts of the language where this is important.

- John Cowan.