View source for '''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste

* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:
** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the <u>main</u> bridi, rather than the <u>current</u> bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.
** Comments?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
**** <u>Another</u> issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.
**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.
**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.
**** I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the [[CLL|Refgramm]] allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of '''vo'a''', and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop '''vo'a''' from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.
**** PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of '''vo'a'''.
**** However...
**** See [[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]].
*** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
**** I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''.
***** [[adam|adam:]]
****** But '''vo'a''' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that '''sevzi''' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]].
Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.

{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}
*xod:
** Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.
** Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', <u>where there is ambiguity</u> (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.
** Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?
*****xod:
******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?
*******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list <u>and</u> Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.
*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.
***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku|kujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)
****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
***** Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of <u>all</u> instances of '''vo'a''' were in fact long-distance - not just of the instances of '''vo'a''' within embedded structures. People actually avoided using '''vo'a''' when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and <u>sought it out</u> when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you.
*[[Adam|Adam:]]
** The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance '''vo'a'''. I'll now try to use it that way consistently.
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**It's no wonder that '''vo'a''' usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.
** IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted '''vo'a'''.
**The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted '''vo'a''' has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as '''vo'a xi ro''', i.e. long-distance to main bridi.
**Yes of course subscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:
*** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;
*** The most likely subscripts - '''xi ro''', '''xi da'a''', '''xi re''' - are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;
*** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.
**Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance '''vo'a''' can define experimental cmavo with that function.
*** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
**** And then not be understood. Use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', '''lexenei'''. They exist, and they're standard.
***** True. Indeed, however '''vo'a''' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a '''nei'''/'''no'a''' expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]]).
* See now also a thread<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005</ref>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.
* [[.aulun.]]:
** I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) '''vo'a''', because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...)
* [[User:bairyn|bairyn]]
** If I were voting on a standard I'm currently leaning in favor of jcowan's porposal for the innermost application, including in descriptions, as default, but I don't have a strong opinion, and usage might currently be for the outermost more commonly, so it'd also depend on how much this standard would be conforming to usage or visa versa.  I did propose variants of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' as experimental cmavo sequences that vary whether it's the outermost, innermost, in innermost-description that is used (''''ei''', ''''e''', and ''''e'i''' suffixes.).  Here are my notes:
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed experimental cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' is a variant of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' and is the same except it is explicitly a pro-sumti for the current (innermost) bridi with the shortest possible scope (even in descriptions), rather than the outermost bridi, or the innermost / current full bridi, or with the bridi choice left vague.
*** '''ni'o''' The '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' sequence's choice of bridi is ambiguous: it depends on which Lojban standard you use.  Under the CLL, it is the current bridi, meaning it is the same as the proposed cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e'''.  Under '''la''' '''ma'oste''' usage, it is the outermost bridi.  See also the English Lojban wiki's page titled ‘'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste’ for a discussion on this topic.
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed secondary axis index semantics: Use e.g. '''vo'a'exipi'ere''' to refer to the second-innermost bridi.  Perhaps '''vei'''…'''ve'o''' can be used to nest groups if needed.  (Without '''pi'e''', '''vo'a'e''' as usual if indexed with '''xi''' would just change what place it refers to, e.g. x6.) (Perhaps then '''vo'a'e''' would be shorthand for '''vo'axipi'eni'upa''' or '''vo'axipi'ero''' under the '''la''' '''ma'oste''' language dialect, saving 5 syllables.)
*** '''ni'o''' Additional proposed experimental cmavo sequences: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' selects bridi from the shortest possible scope, allowing for direct reflexives (even in descriptions) (suggested mneumonic: ‘'e’ as in ‘se’ for a reflexive pronomial verb in some languages), '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' selects bridi from the outermost bridi (suggested mneumonic: ‘'ei’ as in ‘nei’ (like ‘dei’) as an alternative to using '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' when combined with '''lo''' and SE), and '''vo'a'e'i'''…'''vo'u'e'i''' selects from the innermost / current full bridi (suggest mneumonic: adding an extra ‘'i’ looks similar to the outer-bridi-separator '''i''', and also ‘e'i’ is in ‘se'i’ which is a rafsi of '''sevzi''').  Finally, '''vo'a'o'e'''…'''vo'a'o'e''' could be defined for the variant of an unspecified bridi, as in '''xipi'exo'e'''.  Example: in '''i''' '''mi''' '''krici''' '''lodu'u''' '''lo''' '''bende''' '''cu''' '''se''' '''xamgu''' '''lo''' '''djuno''' '''be''' '''fi''' '''vo'a''', the ‘'e’ variant (shortest) would mean that those who know themselves are good for the team, the ‘'ei’ variant (outermost) would mean that those who know the speaker are beneficial for the team, and the ‘'e'i’ variant would mean that those who know the team are good for it.
=References=