Lojban - User contributions [en]

Eulojban

2016-07-20T12:34:49Z

Spheniscine:

{{jbocre/en}}

== Eulojban ==
Eulojban ('''la .eulojban.''' ; standard Lojban name: '''la .e'ulojban.''') is a subdialect of Lojban; specifically, a subdialect of the [[ce ki tau jau|ce ki tau jei]] dialect (thus use of Eulojban presupposes use of ce ki tau jei, and is not meant to duplicate anything already reassigned by CKTJ)

It has one characteristic feature: '''eu''' is a valid diphthong in Eulojban. This gives 20 more potential monosyllabic cmavo, and potentially also expands rafsi space.

Here are some suggested assignments for this new cmavo space:

* '''peu''' : [NEU] = '''po'u lo'''
* '''neu''' : [NEU] = '''no'u lo''' (These are like '''poi/noi''' but often grammatically more convenient if you only need a single selbri instead of a bridi. '''poi/noi''' often need to be closed by '''ku'o/vau'''.)
* '''veu'u''' : [NEU] = '''po'u la''' (e.g. '''la .aleksandros. veu'u banli'''; NEU version of '''voi'i''')
* '''geu'u''' : [GEUhU] - terminator for NEU

== Categorical pronoun set ==
These are pronouns that can be used to refer to any object of that particular category; like natlang pronouns or '''ra'''/'''ru''', their referent may be ambiguous. One can always give a more precise description with '''le [broda]''', or qualify these pronouns with '''poi/noi/peu/neu''', or for the last word in precision, there's always '''goi'''.
* '''reu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: person (prenu); Note: '''zo prenu cu eutca''' ('''eutca''' defined below); it generally refers to humans, but could refer to anything the speaker considers a "person", e.g. one may use '''reu''' to refer to a pet.
* '''deu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: animal, includes humans (danlu)
* '''teu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: inanimate object, includes plants and corpses (dacti jenai ke jmive je danlu)
* '''feu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: female (fetsi)
* '''meu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: male (nakni)
* '''zeu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: place, location (stuzi, mnemonic: zvati / CKTJ-zai)
* '''seu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: abstractions: nu/du'u/ka/etc, and immaterial objects (mucti, mnemonic: su'u)
* '''ceu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: god (cevni)
* '''xeu''' : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: generalized person, "one"/general-you (mnemonic: xanri)
* ? : [KOhA] categorical pronoun: text? (maybe '''do'i''' which is already in ortho-Lojban)

== Still need lervla pronouns, but frustrated by ''boi''? ==

How's this: In Eulojban, lervla pronouns consist of ''one and only one'' BY/BU-group, ''unless'' you use this:

* '''leu''' : [LI2] converts number/character-string to pronoun

No more '''abu za'ure'u cusku''' problem. Heck, you don't even need '''boi''' in '''abu tavla by cy'''! Well you'd still need a '''boi''' in '''leu bypyfyky boi za'ure'u cusku''', but, you can't win them all. '''boi'''s will be '''boi'''s.

== A new attitudinal! ==

* '''eu''' : [UI1] '''eu''' = comfort (Aaaah!), '''eutei''' = pain/suffering (Ouch!) [exists in JVS as '''oi'u''', but with the scale reversed]

('''tei''' is CKTJ-swapped from '''ne'e''', and is preferred over '''nai''' for polar negation in all contexts in Eulojban. In other words, '''tei''' is the suffix form of '''to'e''', while '''nai''' is the suffix form of '''na'e'''.)

== And now for something completely different ==

* '''keu''' : [KE] Temporarily introduces a [[selskiski]]-style tanru. E.g. '''lo keu ckule nixli''' describes a "school of-type girl" / "girl's school" rather than the other way around. This differs from using '''co''' in that place structure still that of the tertau, e.g. in '''mi keu broda brode do''', both '''mi''' and '''do''' are arguments of '''broda''', while in '''mi broda co brode do''', '''mi''' is '''lo broda''', while '''do''' is '''lo se brode'''.
* '''ke'eu''' : [JOhEU] *highly experimental, even for Eulojban!* Toggles following text to [[selskiski]]-style tanru; i.e. all "adjectives/adverbs" come *after* the things they modify, as if you had put '''keu''' before every tanru. '''co''' still works but only changes place structure, not ordering. '''ke'eunai''' switches back to regular tanru style.

== More phonemes? ==
Well crap, we got 20 more monosyllabic cmavo, but already used up 14 of them. (Currently unassigned: '''beu geu ieu jeu veu ueu''') How about...

'''q''' might be [ŋ] (cf. Ceqli, Toaq Dzu). This variant might be rendered '''la .eulojbaq.''' (standard Lojban: '''la .e'ulojbang.'''). This allows even more space (10 more monosyllabic cmavo), such that '''qa''', '''qai''', even '''qeu''' are potential cmavo.

'''q''' will be considered a distinct phoneme and letter from '''n'''. However, '''n''' may still be pronounced [ŋ] before '''k/g/x'''. As a result, the combinations '''qk/qg/qx''' are disallowed.

This would "solve" the problem of how to transliterate certain cmevla, like Bing (Microsoft's search engine); there is disagreement of whether it should be rendered '''la .bing.''' or '''la .bin.''' . Theoretically, since [ŋ] is supposed to be an allophone of '''n''', the latter would be more correct, but would likely not be pronounced accurately, and might be harder to understand. The former is clearer, but the necessity of pronouncing it with an [ng] / [ŋg] ending is displeasing to some. Under Eulojbaq, it's '''la .biq.'''

More phonemic madness: '''w''' could be a new vowel, [œ] (stressable), thus '''la .eulwjbaq.''' (standard Lojban '''la .e'ulo'yjbang.''') is born (21 more monosyllabic cmavo!). Then '''wi''' and '''wu''' can be new diphthongs [œi /œj] and [œu / œw], thus '''la .eulwujbaq.''' (standard Lojban '''la .e'uly'ujbang.''') is born (another 42 monosyllabic cmavo!).

Suggested cmavo:

* '''tw''' (rafsi '''-twl-''') : [SE] = '''to'ai'''
* '''vw''' (rafsi '''-vwl-''') : [SE] = '''vo'ai'''
* '''xw''' (rafsi '''-xwl-''') : [SE] = '''xo'ai'''
<hr>
* '''gwi''' : [GOhOI] = '''go'oi'''
* '''zwi''' : [GOhOI] = '''ze'oi'''
* '''bwi''' : [GOhOI] = '''bo'ei'''
* '''xwi''' : [XOhI] = '''xo'i'''
* '''pwi''' : [NOIhA] = '''poi'a'''
* '''nwi''' : [NOIhA] = '''noi'a'''
* '''swi''' : [NOIhA] = '''soi'a'''
<hr>
* '''nw'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''nu''' variant
* '''dw'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''du''' (standard Lojban '''du'u''') variant
* '''kw'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''ka''' variant
* '''ni'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''ni''' variant
* '''su'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''su'u''' variant
* '''si'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''si'o''' variant
* '''li'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''li'i''' variant
* '''jo'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''jo'u''' (standard Lojban '''jei''') variant
* '''mu'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''mu'e''' variant
* '''pu'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''pu'u''' variant
* '''za'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''za'i''' variant
* '''zu'w'''  : [KE999] conversion: converts selbri / tanru into '''zu'o''' variant
(like '''peu/neu''', these reduce the need to close bridi-tails. These are in subselma'o KE999 so as to not conflict with any KE sub-selma'o that anyone else might want to make :p)
<hr>
* '''pw'''  : [LE] '''po''' ("standard" Lojban '''xu'u''') , but in LE (yet more bridi-tail-hate)

Oh, and by the way, the consonant cluster '''-mz-''' is ''unbanned'' from all Eulojban dialects. You're welcome.

== Code switch cmavo ==

* '''cau'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au tcekitaujau'''
* '''coi'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au tcekitaujoi'''
* '''cei'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au tcekitaujei'''
* '''jo'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au .e'ulojban.'''
* '''qo'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au .e'ulojbang.'''
* '''qw'eu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au .e'ulo'yjbang.'''
* '''qw'wu''' : [JOhEU] = '''jo'au .e'uly'ujbang.'''
<hr>
* '''bi'eu''' : [JOhEU] Toggles to brivla-cmevla merge. '''bi'eunai''' toggles it off.
* '''ga'eu''' : [JOhEU] Toggles to [[gadganzu]] usage. '''ga'eunai''' toggles it off.
** Alternatively, '''lo'w/loi'w''' could be gadganzu-'''lo'i/loi'i''', and '''le'w/lei'w''' could be gadganzu-'''le'e/lei'e'''. Gadganzu '''le'i''' has less use under the existence of '''peu/neu'''.
* '''xo'eu''' : [JOhEU] Toggles xorxes' proposal to disallow letter-strings from having PA. '''xo'eunai''' toggles it off. '''xo'eucei''' would disallow character strings from having PA *except* within LI...LOhO.
** Ironically the '''leu''' proposal above in Eulojban addresses the same problem as this proposal, thus it isn't actually needed in Eulojban.
* '''tau'eu''' : [JOhEU] Alta parser
* '''zau'eu''' : [JOhEU] Zantufa parser
* '''sau'eu''' : [JOhEU] Spagetufa parser
* '''cai'eu''' : [JOhEU] Camxes parser
* '''nai'eu''' : [JOhEU] AAAAAARGH JUST TAKE ME BACK TO BPFK LOJBAN
* '''jo'i'eu''' : [JOhEU] LALALALA JBOFI'E (CLL v1) IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME
<hr>
* '''dai'eu''' : [JOhEU] Switches to other language. '''dai'eunai''' switches back... supposedly... '''dai'eunai''' might actually mean something in that other language...
* '''xo'e'o'eu''' : [JOhEU] Elliptical code/dialect/language switch
* '''u'u'u'eu''' : [JOhEU] Switches to [[U (conlang)]] <nowiki>[note, there isn't any way to switch back!]</nowiki>
(Yes this set completely breaks the rules of how '''jo'au''' works. They're just included here as a completely informal [not to mention somewhat satirical] replacement for the requisite '''jo'au'''s)

== Bonus cmavo ==
* '''ro'eu''' : [UI4] emotion category/modifier : related to new dialects. '''uiro'eu''' = "Yay! A new dialect!" '''oiro'eu''' = "Darn it, a new dialect!" '''ki'aro'eu''' = "I didn't understand what you said, cause it's some strange new dialect." '''euteiro'ero'eu''' = "My brain hurts from this new dialect."

== How about some brivla? ==

* '''bemza''' (rafsi '''-beu-''') : = '''berti''', based on '''be'a'''
* '''dumza''' (rafsi '''-deu-''') : = '''stuna''', based on '''du'a'''
* '''nemzu''' (rafsi '''-neu-''') : = '''snanu''', based on '''ne'u'''
* '''vumza''' (rafsi '''-veu-''') : = '''stici''', based on '''vu'a'''
<hr>
* '''limseuljau''' : x1 is the feeling of the sun and water on swimmer x2's chest
* '''kangeunre''': x1 is the vague, tremulous rose color that x2 sees with their eyes closed
* '''sipneurxe''' : x1 is the sensation of being carried along by a river and also by sleep, felt by x2
* '''vanleumgu''' : x1 is the light of a sunset reflected in a lake
* '''eutca''' : x1 means whatever speaker x2 wants it to mean
* '''eutceu''' : = '''me'au lo eutca be mi'''
* '''qeunxrwnmrwinmlwu''' : = x1 is the feeling of bafflement and confusion that English speaker x2 feels when encountering strange new phonemes (e.g. '''w''') or usage of phonemes in non-English ways (e.g. syllable-initial '''q''')

==Eulojbanistan==
Eulojbanistan ('''euljbogu'e''') is an island about twenty kilometers '''nemzu''' of [[Lojbanistan]]. The Eulojbanistan national animal is the '''euldipte''' (crested penguin, gen. Eudyptes, aka ''mapyzipcpi''), and its national flower is the '''eutkaliptu''' (eucalyptus, aka ''maprultricu'').

National flag: [[File:eulojbanistan.png|100px|National flag]]

== oisairo'eu mi se qeunxrwnmrwinmlwu .i ko sidju mi tai lo nu bacru pe'usai ==

Pronunciation guides:
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s14uQgsKEzgo '''eu peu neu reu deu teu zeu seu''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eBaQmimHr2 '''qa qe qi qo qu qai qau qei qeu qoi''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s1yZUmUT7bus '''ty vy xy tw vw xw xwi xwu''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jgEngavsYj '''twlklama vwlklama xwlklama''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Cngjdr6akp '''limseuljau kangeunre sipneurxe eutceu''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s1VdCLYfnggm '''oisairo'eu mi se qeunxrwnmrwinmlwu''']
* [http://vocaroo.com/i/s09ONOTuirCg '''la .eulojban. la .eulojbaq. la .eulwjbaq. la .eulwujbaq.''']

Talk:samtrosku specification

2015-11-26T01:36:36Z

Spheniscine: /* While-loops and Do-while loops */

==While-loops and Do-while loops==
I invented {{jvs|ganfauke}} and {{jvs|faubganke}} for this purpose, though I might concede that they might be more opaque even if more technically accurate. However, one problem with the '''ca le du'u''' solution is that do-while loops are supposed to happen at least once.

Another problem is that there is currently no grammatical way to attach a '''ca le du'u''' after a '''tu'e...tu'u''' block, without an experimental solution like {{jvs|zo'au}} ("postnex" definition; '''se zo'u''' has also been suggested). My brivla does introduce a different problem on that front though, as it would often require several statements within a single NU. '''lo nu tu'e ... tu'u''' has been suggested but is not yet implemented in parsers.

[[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 17:36, 25 November 2015 (PST)

Talk:samtrosku specification

2015-11-26T01:36:20Z

Spheniscine: /* While-loops and Do-while loops */

2015-11-16T04:46:05Z

Spheniscine: /* Numeric system */

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T04:41:00Z

Spheniscine: /* Elemental system */

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T04:39:16Z

Spheniscine: /* Elemental system */

Talk:Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:51:23Z

Spheniscine:

* May need a list for the fu'ivla system for the months of the year; though some of them (e.g. djunio) aren't compatible with the CGV ban; not sure I want to update it [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 17:51, 15 November 2015 (PST)

Talk:Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:51:15Z

2015-11-16T01:23:43Z

Spheniscine:

Older proposals: [[calendar Proposals (old)|link]]

==Days of the week==
===Numeric system===

{| class="wikitable"
! English !! Lojban
|-
| Monday || {{jvs|pavdei}}
|-
| Tuesday || {{jvs|reldei}}
|-
| Wednesday || {{jvs|cibdei}}
|-
| Thursday || {{jvs|vondei}}
|-
| Friday || {{jvs|mumdei}}
|-
| Saturday || {{jvs|xavdei}}
|-
| Sunday || {{jvs|zeldei}} / {{jvs|nondei}}
|}

===Spectral / rainbow system===

{| class="wikitable"
! English !! Lojban
|-
| Sunday || {{jvs|xundei}}
|-
| Monday || {{jvs|najdei}}
|-
| Tuesday || {{jvs|peldei}}
|-
| Wednesday || {{jvs|ri'odje}} / '''ri'ordei'''
|-
| Thursday || {{jvs|cicnydei}}
|-
| Friday || {{jvs|bladei}}
|-
| Saturday || {{jvs|zirdei}}
|}

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:20:43Z

Spheniscine:

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:20:23Z

Spheniscine:

Older proposals: [[calendar Proposals (old)|link]]

==Days of the week==
====Numeric system====

{| class="wikitable"
! English !! Lojban
|-
| Monday || {{jvs|pavdei}}
|-
| Tuesday || {{jvs|reldei}}
|-
| Wednesday || {{jvs|cibdei}}
|-
| Thursday || {{jvs|vondei}}
|-
| Friday || {{jvs|mumdei}}
|-
| Saturday || {{jvs|xavdei}}
|-
| Sunday || {{jvs|zeldei}} / {{jvs|nondei}}
|}

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:15:00Z

Spheniscine:

Older proposals: [[calendar Proposals (old)|link]]

==Days of the week==
====Numeric system====

Calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:12:43Z

Spheniscine:

Older proposals: [[calendar Proposals (old)|link]]

Talk:calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:10:57Z

Spheniscine: Spheniscine moved page Talk:calendar Proposals to Talk:calendar Proposals (old): I want to create a page with the current proposals for days of week etc, so these older proposals should be archived on a different page

#REDIRECT [[Talk:calendar Proposals (old)]]

Talk:calendar Proposals (old)

2015-11-16T01:10:57Z

<div>Posted by [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/user2 rlpowell] on Wed 06 of Apr., 2005 23:54 UTC posts: 14214</div><div>
Old stuff that used to be on this page but is clearly discussion:

----

What about using the [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Discordian+Calendar Discordian Calendar]? I can't be the only Discordian[http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=Discordian ?] jbopre.

----

Or what about discarding calanders and referring to the approximate number of seconds passed since some epoch (UNIX epoch, or Global Positioning System Epoch, etc (1970 and 1980 respectively))? For referencing the time within the day you could discuss the absolute time modulo the number of seconds in a day.

''Base 60 time is ugly enough; base 86400 is right out. You could, however, discuss the portion of the day that has elapsed (as a decimal), thus getting a sort of "metric time" such as .78342 (''pize bici vore''), which could be thought of as 7:83:42 in a time system with 100 seconds (.864 of an ordinary second) in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, and 10 hours in a day.''

''Of course, let me establish right now that I don't honestly believe anyone would use that, but it's fun to make proposals like that. I may as well go one step farther and suggest hexadecimal time, with 16 hours in a day, 16 minutes in an hour, and 256 "seconds" in a minute, and times expressed like .3DB7 (''pi cijau feize''). That one's sure to satisfy those who want a new time system and those who want hexadecimal to be default, while actually being usable to no one. [[File:icon_smile.gif|:-)]] <del>[http://www.lojban.org/tiki/rab.spir rab.spir]</del>'' la'e li ro ju'u dau ba na se pilno [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tinkit tinkit]

''Clearly, year 1 (the only calendar with a zero was that of the Khmer Rouge, not an example we wish to follow) should be the date of the start of the Loglan project, or possibly of the split between Loglan and Lojban. - mi'e [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/kreig.daniyl. kreig.daniyl.]''

''Clearly more Lojbanic would be that everyone use the year they joined the community as year 1, after all we do have a place for the calendar. This way we have a perfectly unambiguous and perfectly confusing system.''--mi'e [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/xorxes xorxes]

What about [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Native+speakers jbojbe?] Year of birth? First word? Fluency?

''Maybe the year of their first [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/jbonunsla Logfest].''

Then you can't undrestand those whose age in the community you don't know.

Be aware that the constructed-calendar scene is as complex and populous and varied (and as full of crackpots) as the[http://www.lojban.org/tiki/conlang constructed language] scene. I'll try to get you some links of where you can look, but suffice to say that there are ''many''weird, whacky, and wonderful (and less-than-wonderful) calendars that have been developed that could be used as a Lojban calendar (''i.e.'', you can probably find [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/lobykai Lojban-nature] in them). ''--mi'e mark.''

We shouldn't use Earth years and days or moon months to tell time in a logical language<del>especially since the [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojbanistan land where lojban is spoken most] might be on a different planet ;-[http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=%3B- ?]). How about something based directly on the atomic standard, measured in hertz/KHz/MHz/etc as needed? </del>mi'e [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/cein cein].

----

coi rodo fau. Just wondering about these calendar proposals, I came across the Earth Triangular Calendar. It appears to be a fantastically logical system which doesn't vary from year to year. (It can be found on the Wikibooks website http://en.wikibooks.org/)

It has ten months of 36 days (with a Week of Light of five or six days at the end of the tenth month). Within each 36-day month, there are six weeks consisting of six days each.

Then, within each day, perhaps Swatch-style Internet Time (dividing the day into 1000 beats of 86.4 seconds) maybe with additional "millibeats" of 0.0864 seconds could be used, but oriented around UTC and not Biel Mean Time.

I'm only just starting out in Lojban, and to be honest, I'm only able to say (and thankfully spell) my name and say hello, but with my limited knowledge, it seems that because Lojban supports hexadecimal numbers, the names of days, weeks and months could be just a number, then the rafsi for day, week or month, leading to oneday, twoday, threeday etc...

Just a thought. mi'e rinteilis.

----

Hello people. Got two things to put to you today. One of them is the use of pi'e meaning "part of" to separate hours from minutes from seconds etc. That's fine. I can work with that, because seconds are parts of minutes are parts of hours. But when it comes to using this system to separate days from months, and months from years, I have a problem. Months are not parts of days and years are not parts of months. Surely if we're being correct, the format is (in logical order): year, month, day, hour, minute, second?

Another thing. Seen as this is for new calendar proposals, here's an idea that might suit:

- Years in the Common Era only are used (AD, not BC) - called "orbits" (BC < 0)
- Next, each day is numbered from 000 to 364 (365 in leap years)
- Then, we take the decimal time of each day eg 12:00 = 0.50000

For the time, three decimal places may be fine, but for more precision, five should really be used.

My current timestring is: 2005.097.02361 (Y2005 M04 D07 00:34Z)
</div>

calendar Proposals

2015-11-16T01:10:56Z

Spheniscine: Spheniscine moved page calendar Proposals to calendar Proposals (old): I want to create a page with the current proposals for days of week etc, so these older proposals should be archived on a different page

#REDIRECT [[calendar Proposals (old)]]

2015-08-23T08:45:34Z

Spheniscine:

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T15:15:29Z

Spheniscine:

I dont understand what is all meant here. What is wanted from au/e'o/e'u series in general? Aren't they applied to the whole sentence? [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 01:55, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
* That is the question I am asking the community in general. Certainly we can ca'emsku that the imperative/irrealis moods scope over the entire sentence, but that comes at the cost of expressiveness; one would then have to resort to circumlocutions to say something like "the one who you should see".
** not necessarily. just mark necessary parts with {{vlapoi|da'i|nai}} [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 04:51, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*** not sure what you mean here; I think it's much less convenient to mark the main bridi with '''da'inai''' in order to mark the sub-bridi with the correct irrealis moods. Example: "I see a person who you should love" = '''mi viska lo prenu poi ei do prami''' / '''mi viska lo prenu poi e'i ko prami''' (difference between '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here is hard to express in English); if '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here scopes over the entire sentence, how would you mark the parts you *don't* want to affect with '''da'inai''' cleanly? [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 04:57, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
****by using da'i, da'inai, ei, e'i where needed. [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****Still not seeing it; do we need '''fu'e da'inai mi viska lo prenu fu'o poi ei do prami'''? Which also contradicts what the CLL says about attitudinal scope? [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 08:15, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
****according to BPFK {{jvs|ei}} means ''should'' and {{jvs|e'i}} denotes a command.[[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****I know; it's just that in English, it's hard to wrap a command into a subclause without using idiom or tone of voice. Something like "I see a person who you should love" vs "I see a person... ''who you '''should''' love''" [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 08:15, 21 August 2015 (PDT)

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T15:11:19Z

Spheniscine:

I dont understand what is all meant here. What is wanted from au/e'o/e'u series in general? Aren't they applied to the whole sentence? [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 01:55, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
* That is the question I am asking the community in general. Certainly we can ca'emsku that the imperative/irrealis moods scope over the entire sentence, but that comes at the cost of expressiveness; one would then have to resort to circumlocutions to say something like "the one who you should see".
** not necessarily. just mark necessary parts with {{vlapoi|da'i|nai}} [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 04:51, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*** not sure what you mean here; I think it's much less convenient to mark the main bridi with '''da'inai''' in order to mark the sub-bridi with the correct irrealis moods. Example: "I see a person who you should love" = '''mi viska lo prenu poi ei do prami''' / '''mi viska lo prenu poi e'i ko prami''' (difference between '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here is hard to express in English); if '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here scopes over the entire sentence, how would you mark the parts you *don't* want to affect with '''da'inai''' cleanly? [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 04:57, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
****by using da'i, da'inai, ei, e'i where needed. [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****Still not seeing it; do we need '''fu'e da'inai mi viska lo prenu fu'o poi ei do prami'''? Which also contradicts what the CLL says about attitudinal scope?
****according to BPFK {{jvs|ei}} means ''should'' and {{jvs|e'i}} denotes a command.[[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****I know; it's just that in English, it's hard to wrap a command into a subclause without using idiom or tone of voice. Something like "I see a person who you should love" vs "I see a person... ''who you '''should''' love''"

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T15:10:35Z

Spheniscine:

I dont understand what is all meant here. What is wanted from au/e'o/e'u series in general? Aren't they applied to the whole sentence? [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 01:55, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
* That is the question I am asking the community in general. Certainly we can ca'emsku that the imperative/irrealis moods scope over the entire sentence, but that comes at the cost of expressiveness; one would then have to resort to circumlocutions to say something like "the one who you should see".
** not necessarily. just mark necessary parts with {{vlapoi|da'i|nai}} [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 04:51, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*** not sure what you mean here; I think it's much less convenient to mark the main bridi with '''da'inai''' in order to mark the sub-bridi with the correct irrealis moods. Example: "I see a person who you should love" = '''mi viska lo prenu poi ei do prami''' / '''mi viska lo prenu poi e'i ko prami''' (difference between '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here is hard to express in English); if '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here scopes over the entire sentence, how would you mark the parts you *don't* want to affect with '''da'inai''' cleanly? [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 04:57, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
****by using da'i, da'inai, ei, e'i where needed. [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****Still not seeing it; do we need '''fu'e da'inai mi viska lo prenu fu'o poi ei do prami'''? Which also contradicts what the CLL says about attitudinal scope?
****according to BPFK {{jvs|ei}} means ''should'' and {{jvs|e'i}} denotes a command.[[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****I know; it's just that in English, it's hard to wrap a command into a subclause without using idiom or tone of voice. Something like "I see a person who you should see" vs "I see a person... ''who you should see''"

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T15:07:02Z

Spheniscine:

I dont understand what is all meant here. What is wanted from au/e'o/e'u series in general? Aren't they applied to the whole sentence? [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 01:55, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
* That is the question I am asking the community in general. Certainly we can ca'emsku that the imperative/irrealis moods scope over the entire sentence, but that comes at the cost of expressiveness; one would then have to resort to circumlocutions to say something like "the one who you should see".
** not necessarily. just mark necessary parts with {{vlapoi|da'i|nai}} [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 04:51, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*** not sure what you mean here; I think it's much less convenient to mark the main bridi with '''da'inai''' in order to mark the sub-bridi with the correct irrealis moods. Example: "I see a person who you should love" = '''mi viska lo prenu poi ei do prami''' / '''mi viska lo prenu poi e'i ko prami''' (difference between '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here is hard to express in English); if '''ei''' and '''e'i''' here scopes over the entire sentence, how would you mark the parts you *don't* want to affect with '''da'inai''' cleanly? [[User:Spheniscine|Spheniscine]] ([[User talk:Spheniscine|talk]]) 04:57, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
****by using da'i, da'inai, ei, e'i where needed. [[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)
*****Still not seeing it; do we need '''fu'e da'inai mi viska lo prenu fu'o poi ei do prami'''? Which also contradicts what the CLL says about attitudinal scope?
****according to BPFK {{jvs|ei}} means ''should'' and {{jvs|e'i}} denotes a command.[[User:Gleki|mu'o mi'e La Gleki]] ([[User talk:Gleki|talk]]) 06:23, 21 August 2015 (PDT)

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T11:58:25Z

Spheniscine:

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T11:57:12Z

Spheniscine:

Talk:CLL heresies: Scope of "ko"

2015-08-21T11:56:48Z

Spheniscine: