Lojban - User contributions [en]

ce ki tau jau

2017-04-09T06:27:31Z

Melop: Adding a proposition

{{jbocre/en}}

The ''ce-ki-tau-jau'' (and occasionally joined by ''du'') dialect of Lojban has certain CV'V [[cmavo]] swapped with similar CV cmavo, as those CV'V are (far) more useful than the CV. The proposal can be generalized to a far wider class of proposed swaps. Thus, it is an umbrella-term. The word for this dialect in Lojban is " tcekitaujau "; in English it is often called "ce-ki-tau-jau" (possibly without the hyphens, using whitespaces instead), although this is ambiguous and perhaps "Cekitaujau" or, better, "Tcekitaujau" (or all lowercase) would be preferred.

In the following possibilities, each proposed swap (listed hereinafter) is independent of all others, with the exception that "X becomes Y" necessitates also that "Y becomes X". By "X becomes Y, and Y becomes X", it is meant that the old meaning of X is assigned as the new meaning of Y, while/and the old meaning of Y is assigned as the new meaning of X, and that only the new meanings are used (old meanings are deprecated and deleted from current dictionaries except as a historic note), at least in the case of cmavo. (For rafsi, "meaning" here means "gismu to which it is assigned, if any").

== Primary proposal ==

In particular, it is suggested that:

* '''ce'u''' becomes '''ce''',
* '''ke'a''' becomes '''ki''',
* '''tu'a''' becomes '''tau''',
* '''jo'u''' becomes '''jau ('''xorxes has proposed that '''joi''' [and zipcpi has proposed '''jei'''] should be used for '''jo'u''';''' '''if that were the case, we wouldn't have to repurpose '''jau)''',
** It might be nice to put all/many (basic) nonlogical connectives in jVV outfits (such that all jVV words are nonlogical connectives), particularly when considering certain proposals for the logical connectives.
** We could develop a theme for NU to end with "-u".
** Note that reassigning "jau" to something other than Cau will break the series in the non-decimal hexadecimal digits. Part of this series is already broken by assigning "rei" (E) to "xei" in that they are no longer alphabetically arranged in order from least to greatest in meaning.
* '''du'u''' becomes '''du''',
* and, for each of the previous, vice-versa

=== Support/reasons ===

Due to the proliferation of [[fancylojban]] and the general idea of the [[type system]], '''ce'u''' and '''tu'a''' become very important cmavo, for maintaining precision and type-correctness, respectively. As for '''ke'a''', it sees far more use than '''ki''', and becomes especially useful with the proposal for [[new voi]] (assigned to '''poi'i''' for standard Lojban). '''jo'u''' has increased in usefulness due to the introduction of plural logic by [[xorlo]].

== Secondary possibilities ==

Other proposed swaps:
* Replace '''rei'''/'''xei''' (one only) with '''sei''' or '''tei''' (one only) and then unassign the duplicate for "hex-E",
** This would help preserve the series for non-decimal hexadecimal digits being in alphabetic order while representing monotonically increasing numbers.
*** Alternatively, '''rei'''/'''xei''' could be swapped with '''kei''', '''mei''', '''nei''', '''pei''', or (if it ever becomes a valid Lojban word) '''qei'''. The first two break certain vague similarities (many terminators begin with "k", many members of MOI are of form mVV). Or, '''vai''' could be swapped with Cai, where C is alphabetically strictly-later than the first letter of "hex-E"; presently the possibilities are '''sai''', '''tai''', '''vai''' (trivial), '''xai''', '''zai'''; only the last option is available for "hex-E" being assigned to '''xei''' if we wish to maintain the alphabetic series and the diphthong series. Or, force '''vai''' to '''zai''' (by swapping) and either unassign '''rei''' (keeping only '''xei''' meaning "hex-E", which is rather mnemonic, incidentally), or swap '''rei'''/'''xei''' with '''vei''' while unassigning the duplicate for hex-E.
** Something along these lines is actually constructive in maintaining/increasing the pattern-derived elegance in the vocabulary while also addressing the well-documented complaints concerning hex-E being originally assigned to '''rei'''. In any case, it would remove the duplicate, which is nice. Shifting later in the alphabet also reduces the chances of running into a commonly used (or, even, non-experimental) word, increasing back-compatibility in a practical but not theoretical sense. These characteristics are not common amongst the other individual proposals in this article.
** See below concerning ''tei'' and '''to'e''' (modifiers of UI).

* '''poi'i''' becomes '''voi''' (as mentioned previously),
* '''su'o''' becomes '''su''',
** Alternatively, '''su'u''' becomes '''su''', further reinforcing the theme for NU of often being of form consonant+u.
* '''ka''' becomes '''ku''',
** See previous comment about the theme of NU
* '''ni''' becomes '''xu'''
** While this would disrupt the frequent usage of '''xu''' in older documents, it would again reinforce the earlier theme; additionally, quantitative cmavo very frequently begin with "x" in Lojban (see: '''xo'''. '''xo'e''', etc.). There is no syllable cost. There may be an aesthetic benefit on both ends from this swap; moreover, some people may find "x" difficult or ugly to pronounce, making it annoying in such a common role as indicating a question. But having '''xo''' and '''xu''' so similar could be problematic (actually, it already could be).
* '''bu'u''' becomes '''bu''' or '''zai''',
* '''ko'oi''' becomes '''koi''',
* '''si'au''' becomes '''si'u''',
* '''zu'ai''' becomes '''se'e''',
* '''mo'oi''' becomes '''ge''' (ce ki tau jau fully embraces the [http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/how-to-substantially-simplify-the-lojban-connective-system-my-connective-system connective system simplification], making '''gaje''' a complete replacement for official '''ge'''),
* '''moi'oi''' becomes '''gei''' ('''gei''' becomes '''ge'i'''?),
* '''i'au''' becomes '''go''',
* '''zo'u''' becomes '''.u''' (the former-A-connectives may be a great space for "punctuation" cmavo due to similarity to '''.i''' . Similarly, perhaps '''ju'ei''' can be '''.e''' and '''zo'au''' (postnex) can be '''.a''', though there may be better candidates for this precious cmavo-space),
* '''lau'u''' becomes '''lau''',
* '''xu'u''' becomes '''po''',
** The very common combination of '''lo''' + '''NU''' to which '''xu'u''' is assigned could get '''po''' (terminator '''ku'au''' becomes '''po'e''') of selma'o '''PO''', which directly turns bridi into sumti (equivalent to '''lo su'u'''). This cuts down Lojban's syllable count considerably.
** The function of '''po'''/'''po'e''' is replaced by '''po'a''', BAI of '''ponse'''; and possibly '''pesai''' and '''pecai''' for mere expression of strength/permanence of relation
* '''fi'o''' becomes '''foi'''? (Did anyone want '''foi''' for something else?),
* '''poi'a''' becomes '''pu'a''', '''noi'a''' becomes '''nu'a''', both of which are of selma'o NOIhA as described in [https://solpahi.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/noiha/ this blog article],
* and, for each of the previous options, vice-versa.
* '''za'i''' changes its meaning to a modal for '''zvati'''. This add a symetry with '''tu'i'''/'''stuzi''', and its more useful than its previous menaing.
* '''ra'u''' is assigned to the old meaning of '''za'i''', because the current meaning of '''ra'u''' can be achieved with NOIhA and perhaps a bridi-to-cnima'o converter.
___

Additionally:

*:Some changes in the dialect are not mere swaps, but are instead geared towards repurposing little cmavo. One such change is to perhaps use '''lau''' instead of '''lau'u''' to represent '''lo su'u go'i''' or '''la'e di'u'''. All of those see far more usage in the corpus than '''lau''' with its current definition.

___

Proposed swaps regarding attitudinal/scalar modifiers:

* '''cu'i''' becomes '''cei'''(?),
* '''ru'e''' becomes '''rei'''(?),
** Criticism: Let '''xei''' be hex digit fourteen; we don't need two monosyllabic cmavo for it
* '''ne'e''' becomes '''tei'''(??),
** (highly speculative proposal; details need to be worked out) Attitudinals should be refactored so that '''nai''' is merely a simple negator like '''na'e''', while '''tei''' takes the polar-negation sense of '''to'e'''. For example, '''.uinai''' would just signify "not happy / other-than-happy", while '''.uitei''' would signify "sadness".
* and, for each of the previous proposals, vice-versa.

Being a basic building block of predicate logic, the existential quantifier is a good candidate for a monosyllabic cmavo form. As for '''bu'u''', it is the spatial equivalent of '''ca''', which has one syllable less. Both tenses are equally important.

== rafsi swaps ==

Reassignment of rafsi has also been considered. For example:

* In standard Lojban the rafsi of '''te''' does not parallel those of the other members of SE ('''se''', '''ve''' and '''xe'''), so it has been proposed to use the rafsi '''-tel-''' instead.
* Ditto for '''-nol-''' (representing '''no'e'''), to parallel '''-nal-''' (for '''na'e''') and '''-tol-''' (for '''to'e''').
* '''-se'i-''' is proposed to stand for '''sefsi''', not '''sevzi''' (jbovlaste already contains lujvo using the new assignment).

== Activation of this mode ==

To mark usage of the ce-ki-tau-jau dialect in an utterance/text, one may/should use '''jo'au [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/tcekitaujau tcekitaujau]'''. It is not clear how many of the previously mentioned individual proposals (which exact standard) are included by this referent.

In order to clear up this vagueness, some version names have been proposed; for example, see [[Proposal: version names for Tcekitaujau dialects]].

== Implementation process if universally adopted ==

This section concerns how the LLG would go about implementing this proposal throughout all of its official texts if it becomes the sole official version of the language (meaning that it is the default dialect in all up-to-date texts and conversations).

The update, even if every individual proposal is ratified, is relatively small; so, it could he handled expediently, to its credit - and benefit. We would update the version number of the language or give this update mode a name. Then we find all non-historic material (particularly learning material and wordlists) and perform a find-and-replace swap on the words, which should be automated easily - just replace all instances of a given word X (possibly surrounded by a single whitespace in order to avoid lujvo, but there can be issues with this) with another word XYLOPHONE which does not appear in the text (choose a non-Lojbanic garbage string surrounded by whitespaces as appropriate), replace the other word Y with the first one (X) throughout the document, then replace the garbage string XYLOPHONE with the second word (Y) throughout the same; repeat this for every pair of words to be swapped according to the standard. Afterward, mark or update the (new) version number on these documents which underwent the swap procedure and republish. Mark all documents or conversations which are not updated as historic (obeying the previous version's conventions), possibly with their own version number. In this task, the most difficult and time-consuming part would be in finding and sorting the documents.

== Criticisms ==

The main flaw, according to many (most?) criticisms, is that the benefit of changing to follow most (or even ~all) individual proposals is relatively (or in some estimations, very) small. Thus, any accompanying cost can easily dominate.

* This proposal destroys back-compatibility. However, it does not actually fix anything that is broken, it just shines up some perfectly good bits of the language a bit (at the level of vocabulary). So, no new functionality is included nor is any old functionality really improved except superficially. You know what they say about fixing things that ain't broken...
** Relatedly, it forces relearning and re-accustoming. Other proposals add new features which need to be learned the first time, but this forces people to learn things that they already know for no new functionality.

* Discussion and approval of this proposal would detract from other efforts, including fixing or expanding the language in other ways. The same goes for updating all material so as to conform. Any positive amount of discussion or effort at this level would represent a significant proportion of all discussion or effort; we just cannot practically dedicate our (human) resources to this task without being morally obligated to wonder about how it would be better spent.

* The only benefit derived directly from this proposal is having shorter words for some "more common" meanings, and perhaps gaining some aesthetic beauty as well. Note that current amount of usage could be biased in some ways and may not actually reveal general usefulness.

* Parallels and series in the vocabulary could be broken.

* The scope of the proposal is not clear. Some of its individual proposals seem unrelated to the original intent and are included as extras because they do not really fit anywhere else. At the least, each change would have to be adopted individually - make sure to include the "vice-versa"'s!

* There is still some disagreement within some individual proposals.

* Some individual proposals (such as those somehow concerning the connectives) are predicated on the adoption of other (big) proposals.

* Etymological connections could be obscured.

* Some proposals reduce the explicit nature of Lojban (such as by reducing "la'e di'u" or "lo nu" into single words each), which obfuscates some of the underlying, carefully-crafted structure. This may be highly displeasing to some users, especially due to the introduced lack of symmetry in the vocabulary and grammar solely for the sake of saving syllables in certain (but not necessarily all) pre-existing texts.

== External links ==

* [https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/lojban/t2h3yV5_TIU] Mailing list discussion sparked by a "joke" or "test" which announced the (untrue) adoption of Tcekitaujau by the BPFK.

dikca angeli

2017-02-09T17:57:28Z

Melop:

.i ti goi ko'a xe fanva la'e la dikca angeli ku la lojban lo glico jo'u ponjo la melop

.i zukte lo du'u lu tai lo kantu brife ku lo mense'i be mi cu desku li'u claxu zo .i kei ku lo smuni to'e klina ku sa'uku'inai seni'i lo su'u to'e genra kei ku

{|
| '''''Japanese'''''
| '''''Romaji'''''
| '''''English translation from Project DIVA F2nd'''''
| '''''ko'a'''''
|-
| ワタシは、歌うのがスキ
| Watashi wa, utau no ga suki
| I love to sing
| .i mi nelci lo nu sanga
|-
| ワタシがそう作られたからじゃない
| watashi ga sō tsukurareta kara ja nai
| But it's not because that's how I was made
| ki'unai lo pu'u si'au pu te cupra mi
|-
| この声をスキだという
| kono koe o suki da to iu
| I say I love my voice
| .i cusku lo du'u prami le voksa
|-
| アナタが歓んでくれるから
| anata ga yorokonde kureru kara
| Because it makes you happy
| ki'u lo nu gleki gasnu do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| 0と1しか分からない
| Zero to ichi shika wakaranai
| I only understand 0s and 1s
| .i po'o jimpe li no je pa
|-
| ワタシに"I"を教えてくれた
| Watashi ni "I" o oshiete kureta
| But you taught me to understand "I"
| .i do pu ctuca mi zo I
|-
| その日からワタシのココロの中、
| Sono hi kara watashi no kokoro no naka,
| Since that day, my heart
| .i co'a lo ta djedi ku lo mense'i be mi cu
|-
| アナタで満たされてるの
| anata de mitasareteru no
| Has been filled with you
| mu'o tisna do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、ゆさぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| ワタシは、ヒトリがキライ
| Watashi wa, hitori ga kirai
| I hate being alone
| .i mi xebni lo li'i kancau
|-
| 孤独な世界に溶けてしまうから
| kodoku na sekai ni tokete shimau kara
| Because I melt away in a lonely world
| ki'u lo du'u runme ti'u lo pavysei munje
|-
| アナタといる時がスキ
| Anata to iru toki ga suki
| I love the time I spend with you
| .i prami lo ni kansa do kei lo temci
|-
| ワタシを暖めてくれるから
| Watashi o atatamete kureru kara
| Because it warms me
| ku'i lo nu glare gasnu mi
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| ヒトリじゃ何も作れない
| Hitori ja nani mo tsukurenai
| Nothing can be created alone
| .i no da ka'e zbasu poi'a jiksei
|-
| ワタシに歌を与えてくれた
| Watashi ni uta o ataete kureta
| So you gave me song
| .i do pu dunda mi lo ka sanga
|-
| その日からワタシのココロの中、
| sono hi kara watashi no kokoro no naka,
| Since that day, my heart
| .i co'a lo ta djedi ku lo mense'i be mi cu
|-
| アナタで満たされてるの
| anata de mitasareteru no
| Has been filled with you
| mu'o tisna do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、揺さぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| ワタシの世界、広がるの
| watashi no sekai, hirogaru no
| My world opens up
| .i lo munje pe mi cu tenpe'a
|-
| まるで天使の羽根みたいに
| maru de tenshi no hane mitai ni
| Like the wings of an angel
| tai lo nalci be lo angeli
|-
| ワタシのココロ、はばたくの？
| watashi no kokoro, habataku no?
| Will my heart take flight?
| xu lo mense'i be mi ca'o vofli
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、揺さぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|}

dikca angeli

2017-02-09T17:56:50Z

Melop: Created page with ".i ti goi ko'a xe fanva la'e la dikca angeli ku la lojban lo glico jo'u ponjo la melop .i zukte lo du'u lu tai lo kantu brife ku lo mense'i be mi cu desku li'u claxu zo .i ke..."

.i ti goi ko'a xe fanva la'e la dikca angeli ku la lojban lo glico jo'u ponjo la melop

.i zukte lo du'u lu tai lo kantu brife ku lo mense'i be mi cu desku li'u claxu zo .i kei ku lo smuni to'e klina ku sa'uku'inai seni'i lo su'u to'e genra kei ku

{|
| '''''Japanese'''''
| '''''Romaji'''''
| '''''English translation from Project DIVA F 2nd'''''
| '''''ko'a'''''
|-
| ワタシは、歌うのがスキ
| Watashi wa, utau no ga suki
| I love to sing
| .i mi nelci lo nu sanga
|-
| ワタシがそう作られたからじゃない
| watashi ga sō tsukurareta kara ja nai
| But it's not because that's how I was made
| ki'unai lo pu'u si'au pu te cupra mi
|-
| この声をスキだという
| kono koe o suki da to iu
| I say I love my voice
| .i cusku lo du'u prami le voksa
|-
| アナタが歓んでくれるから
| anata ga yorokonde kureru kara
| Because it makes you happy
| ki'u lo nu gleki gasnu do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| 0と1しか分からない
| Zero to ichi shika wakaranai
| I only understand 0s and 1s
| .i po'o jimpe li no je pa
|-
| ワタシに"I"を教えてくれた
| Watashi ni "I" o oshiete kureta
| But you taught me to understand "I"
| .i do pu ctuca mi zo I
|-
| その日からワタシのココロの中、
| Sono hi kara watashi no kokoro no naka,
| Since that day, my heart
| .i co'a lo ta djedi ku lo mense'i be mi cu
|-
| アナタで満たされてるの
| anata de mitasareteru no
| Has been filled with you
| mu'o tisna do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、ゆさぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| ワタシは、ヒトリがキライ
| Watashi wa, hitori ga kirai
| I hate being alone
| .i mi xebni lo li'i kancau
|-
| 孤独な世界に溶けてしまうから
| kodoku na sekai ni tokete shimau kara
| Because I melt away in a lonely world
| ki'u lo du'u runme ti'u lo pavysei munje
|-
| アナタといる時がスキ
| Anata to iru toki ga suki
| I love the time I spend with you
| .i prami lo ni kansa do kei lo temci
|-
| ワタシを暖めてくれるから
| Watashi o atatamete kureru kara
| Because it warms me
| ku'i lo nu glare gasnu mi
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| ヒトリじゃ何も作れない
| Hitori ja nani mo tsukurenai
| Nothing can be created alone
| .i no da ka'e zbasu poi'a jiksei
|-
| ワタシに歌を与えてくれた
| Watashi ni uta o ataete kureta
| So you gave me song
| .i do pu dunda mi lo ka sanga
|-
| その日からワタシのココロの中、
| sono hi kara watashi no kokoro no naka,
| Since that day, my heart
| .i co'a lo ta djedi ku lo mense'i be mi cu
|-
| アナタで満たされてるの
| anata de mitasareteru no
| Has been filled with you
| mu'o tisna do
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、揺さぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| ワタシの世界、広がるの
| watashi no sekai, hirogaru no
| My world opens up
| .i lo munje pe mi cu tenpe'a
|-
| まるで天使の羽根みたいに
| maru de tenshi no hane mitai ni
| Like the wings of an angel
| tai lo nalci be lo angeli
|-
| ワタシのココロ、はばたくの？
| watashi no kokoro, habataku no?
| Will my heart take flight?
| xu lo mense'i be mi ca'o vofli
|-
| 
|

|

|

|-
| アナタといられるそれだけで
| Anata to irareru sore dake de
| Just by being with you
| .i po'o fau lo kansa do kei
|-
| 電子のココロ、震えるの
| denshi no kokoro, furueru no
| My digital heart flutters
| lo rutni risna cu fekraplyda'i
|-
| まるで量子の風みたいに
| maru de ryōshi no kaze mitai ni
| Like a quantum particle breeze
| tai lo kantu brife ku
|-
| ワタシのココロ、揺さぶるの
| watashi no kokoro, yusaburu no
| My heart trembles
| lo mense'i be mi cu desku
|}