Lojban - User contributions [en]

https://mw.lojban.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Ctefaho Lojban - User contributions [en] 2026-10-25T14:53:41Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.46.2 https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115672 new-fi'o 2015-06-28T01:27:31Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress. An implicit La Ctefà'o pe'isai/pe'icai selectively applies throughout.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a koizva ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korzvajbi ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> Proposing "korzvajbi" (x1 is located alongside of / tangentially located to x2) to better reflect the semantics of "zo'a".<br /> <br /> "zo'a" is officially defined with 2 different definitions ("lamgre" as well as "no'e ragve") but I believe "korzvajbi" to be more accurate.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115668 new-fi'o 2015-06-28T00:59:17Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress. An implicit La Ctefà'o pe'isai/pe'icai selectively applies throughout.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korbi ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korzvajbi ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> Proposing "korzvajbi" (x1 is located alongside of / tangentially located to x2) to better reflect the semantics of "zo'a".<br /> <br /> "zo'a" is officially defined with 2 different definitions ("lamgre" as well as "no'e ragve") but I believe "korzvajbi" to be more accurate.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115666 new-fi'o 2015-06-28T00:57:58Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress. An implicit La Ctefà'o pe'isai/pe'icai selectively applies throughout.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korbi ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korzvajbi ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> Proposing "korzvajbi" (x1 is located alongside of / tangential to x2) to better reflect the semantics of "zo'a".<br /> <br /> "zo'a" is officially defined with 2 different definitions ("lamgre" as well as "no'e ragve") but I believe "korzvajbi" to be more accurate.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115661 new-fi'o 2015-06-27T21:42:12Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korbi ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se lamgre ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115660 new-fi'o 2015-06-27T21:40:34Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korbi ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se lamgre ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115659 new-fi'o 2015-06-27T21:04:47Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress.<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> The rules for multiple '''xoi'''-clauses in a bridi are the same as those for '''sumtcita''', rightward scope. As for nested '''xoi''', more to come.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA''' (Spatial Locations of the Bridi)<br /> <br /> {.i broda bu'u ko'a} -> {.i broda xoi ke'a zvati ko'a} --- At (Location)<br /> <br /> {.i broda ca'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a crane ko'a} --- In Front Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ti'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a trixe ko'a} --- Behind<br /> <br /> {.i broda zu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zunle ko'a} --- On The Left Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ri'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pritu ko'a} --- On The Right Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ga'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a gapru ko'a} --- Above<br /> <br /> {.i broda ni'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a cnita ko'a} --- Below<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a nenri ko'a} --- Within<br /> <br /> {.i broda ru'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a sruri ko'a} --- Around<br /> <br /> {.i broda pa'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a pagre ko'a} --- Through<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a zvajbi ko'a} --- Near<br /> <br /> {.i broda te'e ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a korbi ko'a} --- Bordering<br /> <br /> {.i broda re'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a lamji ko'a} --- Adjacent to<br /> <br /> {.i broda fa'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation Towards (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda to'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a to'e farna ko'a} --- Direction or Orientation From (Does not imply movement)<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'i ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se to'e ragve ko'a} --- This Side Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ze'o ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se ragve ko'a} --- Across<br /> <br /> {.i broda zo'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a se lamgre ko'a} --- Tangential To / Alongside of<br /> <br /> {.i broda be'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a berti ko'a} --- North Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda ne'u ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a snanu ko'a} --- South Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda du'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stuna ko'a} --- East Of<br /> <br /> {.i broda vu'a ko'a} -> (.i broda xoi ke'a stici ko'a} --- West Of<br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115656 new-fi'o 2015-06-27T18:57:57Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress.<br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> The rules for multiple '''xoi'''-clauses in a bridi are the same as those for '''sumtcita''', rightward scope. As for nested '''xoi''', more to come.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115655 new-fi'o 2015-06-27T18:54:12Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> This is all very much a work-in-progress.<br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Desired Definition: None! No fi'o! No fe'u!<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o hopes that all sumtcita and their interactions will one day be well defined.<br /> <br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o does not consider any clause containing a '''ke'a''' to be fully expandable (in that the '''ke'a''' simply vanishes), and only asks for any users of the xoi-based-sumtcita that the "'''ke'a'''" inside the adverbial clause is considered to fully represent the outer bridi (including relevant '''NU'''), regardless of how you desire to expand it.<br /> <br /> The rules for multiple '''xoi'''-clauses in a bridi are the same as those for '''sumtcita''', rightward scope. As for nested '''xoi''', more to come.<br /> <br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' in front of any '''sumtcita''' or of '''fi'o''' itself, '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' in this idea is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> So now that we have the sumtcita based on '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> La Ctefà'o is of the opinion that any bridi always has a NA attached to it, explicit or implicit, defaulting to ja'a if implicit. La Ctefà'o does not consider it logical, sane or useful for a human language that any bridi should ever hang in a "truth-vacuum" between absolute truth or absolute untruth. Rather, Ctefà'o prefers pragmatic truth, which is the only kind of truth useful to a human language (expressing non-absolute human truths), to be the norm. The implementation above relies on this "pragmatic" truth by claiming that a bridi is either true or false, simply because something (unspecified by default) makes it so. This is nothing you need to accept to use this definition of the NA tags (and you can still always claim absolute truth/untruth whenever you want to with jetnu and appropriate x2/ma'i).<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (As single tenses only. Not "hardcoded" to "nau" to allow greater expression)<br /> <br /> pu: "Bridi was in the past of something"<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca: "Bridi was simultaneous with something"<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba: "Bridi is in the future of something"<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''HUGE TODO'''</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115559 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T22:39:17Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created eventually ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> Additionally, the author relies on a simplified form of adverbial clauses such that '''{broda xoi/soi ke'a brode} == {lo su'u broda cu brode}''' for simple sentences (where '''xoi'''/'''soi''' scope are identical). *** More about xoi vs soi coming some time ***<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> Now that we have the sumtcita using a '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a} -> {lo su'u broda cu se natfe zo'e} -> {zo'e natfe lo su'u broda}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a} -> {lo su'u broda cu se natfe ko'a} -> {ko'a natfe lo su'u broda}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e tolna'e ke'a} ---> {zo'e tolna'e lo su'u broda}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a tolna'e ke'a} ---> {ko'a tolna'e lo su'u broda}<br /> <br /> <br /> Keep in mind that NA defaults to ja'a if unspecified (which happens a lot), just like UI defaults to ja'ai, a simple claim can be expanded as such:<br /> <br /> <br /> {.i broda} -> {.i ja'a broda} -> {zo'e tolna'e lo su'u broda}<br /> <br /> <br /> Representing how all bridi are, at their very core, truth claims.<br /> <br /> And remember, logical assertion is now *implemented* with natfe/tolna'e, so any and all claims eventually end up there.<br /> <br /> <br /> {zo'e tolna'e lo su'u broda} -> {zo'e ja'a tolna'e lo su'u ja'a broda}<br /> <br /> <br /> Yes, a claim about something being true is itself a claim, and so on.<br /> <br /> <br /> natfe - x1 (du'u) contradicts/denies/refutes/negates x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3.<br /> <br /> tolna'e - x1 (du'u) confirms/corroborates/verifies(/affirms) x2 (du'u) under rules/logic x3<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> <br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115556 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T13:52:54Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Now when we have the sumtcita using a '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions?!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> <br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115549 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T09:05:34Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Now when we have the sumtcita using a '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions?!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> <br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115548 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T09:03:21Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Now when we have the sumtcita using a '''xoi'''-based-'''fi'o''', why not just define all of them ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) using '''xoi''' directly instead of vague '''fi'o'''-definitions?!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115547 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T08:33:54Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> And when we now have the sumtcita based on a xoi-based-'''fi'o''', based on '''xoi''', we can now define all the case tags ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) directly using '''xoi''', instead of using vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115546 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T08:28:21Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> In addition, we can now define all the case tags ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''', etc) directly using '''xoi''', instead of using vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (as single tenses only)<br /> <br /> pu:<br /> <br /> {pu broda} -> {pu zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ca:<br /> <br /> {ca broda} -> {ca zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ba:<br /> <br /> {ba broda} -> {ba zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi zo'e}<br /> <br /> {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> <br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115543 new-fi'o 2015-06-22T04:11:50Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefá'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi ke'a zo'u ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' ('''zi'ei''' for conformist alternative) in front of the '''fi'o''', '''{zi'e(i) fi'o broda}''', the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead. *** A new-zi'e page will be created soon ***<br /> <br /> An earlier version of this proposal used '''{broda xoi ke'a fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a}''' as the definition. La Ctefá'o now prefers the zo'u-version instead to allow the broadest, sensical meaning possible.<br /> <br /> But in other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). If you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead.<br /> Do not use '''fi'o''' if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''ke'a zo'u'''! And if you really do need the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' directly instead.<br /> <br /> Keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''', if you are not used to them. *** Basic '''"soi vs. xoi"''' TODO ***<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> In addition, we can now define all the case tags ('''PU''', '''ZAhO''', '''FAhA''', '''BAI''', '''NA''') directly using '''xoi''', instead of using vague '''fi'o'''-definitions!<br /> <br /> <br /> '''NA''' (ref http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/na-as-tag)<br /> <br /> na:<br /> <br /> {na broda} -> {na zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda na ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> ja'a:<br /> <br /> {ja'a broda} -> {ja'a zo'e ku broda} -> {broda xoi zo'e to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> {broda ja'a ko'a} -> {broda xoi ko'a to'e natfe ke'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''PU''' (when used as single case tags only)<br /> <br /> pu: {broda pu ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a purci ko'a}<br /> <br /> ca: {broda ca ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a cabna ko'a}<br /> <br /> ba: {broda ba ko'a} -> {broda xoi ke'a balvi ko'a}<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''FAhA'''<br /> <br /> TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''ZAhO'''<br /> <br /> BIG TODO<br /> <br /> <br /> '''BAI'''<br /> <br /> HUGE TODO</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115500 new-fi'o 2015-06-20T18:30:45Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' the scope simply becomes that of [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead.<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''). Any tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, their scope changes to '''soi''' with '''zi'e''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115499 new-fi'o 2015-06-20T17:57:38Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' attached (in '''UI'''-like form) the '''xoi''' simply becomes [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o zi'e brode ko'a|| ||broda soi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''), and the BAI case tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, with '''BAI zi'e''', '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115498 new-fi'o 2015-06-20T17:56:18Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' attached (in '''UI'''-like form) the '''xoi''' becomes [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o zi'e brode ko'a|| ||broda soi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''), and the BAI case tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, with '''BAI zi'e''', '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115497 new-fi'o 2015-06-20T17:48:54Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> With the experimential new-'''zi'e''' attached (in UI-form) the '''xoi''' becomes [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o zi'e brode ko'a|| ||broda soi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''), and the BAI case tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, with '''BAI zi'e''', '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115495 new-fi'o 2015-06-20T15:14:05Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>{{jbocre/en}}<br /> A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> With the new-'''zi'e''' attached the '''xoi''' becomes [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o zi'e brode ko'a|| ||broda soi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''), and the BAI case tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, with '''BAI zi'e''', '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115444 new-fi'o 2015-06-18T20:36:24Z

<p>Ctefaho: </p> <hr /> <div>A proposal by [[User:Ctefaho|la Ctefà'o]] to re-define '''[[BPFK Section: sumtcita Formants|fi'o]]''' based on {{jvs|xoi}}:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> (With the new-'''zi'e''' attached the '''xoi''' becomes [[new soi|(new-)'''soi''']] instead)<br /> <br /> <br /> The use of '''do'e''' in this definition relies on it being able to take the place of '''FA''', as well as the place of other tags. If that is not considered to be possible for '''do'e''' then '''{broda xoi ke'a zo'u fa ko'a brode se'u}''' is the alternative definition.<br /> <br /> In other words, '''fi'o''' is now a short-hand form of '''xoi''' ((new-)'''soi''', with new-'''zi'e'''), and the BAI case tags based on '''fi'o''' are considered short-hand forms of certain specific '''xoi'''-constructs (and again, with '''BAI zi'e''', '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you feel you need to be very specific with how the '''ke'a''' relates inside the '''xoi''', then use '''xoi''' directly instead. Do not use '''fi'o'''/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from '''do'e ke'a'''! And keep in mind that the '''ke'a''' is '''lo su'u no'a ku''' (for both '''xoi''' and '''soi''').<br /> <br /> If you really do want the '''.i joi''' semantics for something then simply use '''.i joi''' instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way '''fi'o'''/BAI are used in practice, restricting '''fi'o'''-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new-fi%27o&diff=115439 new-fi'o 2015-06-18T11:53:47Z

<p>Ctefaho: Created page with "A proposal, by me (la Ctefà'o) to re-define fi'o based on xoi: Old Definition {| class="wikitable" | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode |} New Definition: {..."</p> <hr /> <div>A proposal, by me (la Ctefà'o) to re-define fi'o based on xoi:<br /> <br /> <br /> Old Definition<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda .i joi ko'a brode<br /> |}<br /> <br /> New Definition:<br /> {| class="wikitable"<br /> | broda fi'o brode ko'a|| ||broda xoi fa ko'a brode do'e ke'a se'u<br /> |}<br /> (With the new-zi'e attached the xoi becomes (new-)soi instead)<br /> <br /> <br /> In other words, fi'o is now a short-hand form of xoi ((new-)soi, with new-zi'e), and the BAI case tags based on fi'o are considered short-hand forms of certain specific xoi-constructs (and again, with BAI zi'e, soi).<br /> If you feel the logical urge to be very specific with how the ke'a relates inside the xoi, then use xoi directly instead. Do not use fi'o/BAI if the intended relation is not easily grasped/glorked from {do'e ke'a}!<br /> Also keep in mind that the {ke'a} is {lo su'u no'a ku}, for both xoi and soi (obviously).<br /> If you really want the {.i joi} semantics for something then just use that directly instead.<br /> <br /> This change should better reflect the way fi'o/BAI are used in practice, restricting fi'o-constructs to have a more useful, specific and understandable meaning.</div>

Ctefaho