Lojban - User contributions [en]

Lojbanic Software

2026-03-31T21:17:22Z

Bairyn: cabybixygau lo dacti pe la'oi Neverball

__NOTOC__
Runs on: [[File:828.sip|link=]] - Android, [[File:804.sip|link=]] - iPhone, [[File:831.sip|link=]] - Linux, [[File:830.sip|link=]] - Mac, [[File:829.sip|link=]] - Windows, [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] - in browser or universally.
== Learning Lojban ==
=== Sounds of Lojban ===
*[http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf A tiny application] by [[Matt Arnold]] showing how Lojbanic letters sound
=== Flashcard Programs ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] Memrise - [http://memrise.com/ Memrise] (main page). [[MemriseConventions]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [[File:804.sip|link=]] [http://ichi2.net/anki/index.html Anki] is a free and open source program for "spaced repetition", an effective learning technique. It has a built in system for sharing "decks" where you can get Lojban word lists for training: File / Download / Shared Deck, search for "lojban". If this fails for some reason, you can also download and open the deck manually:
** from https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/Lojban
** or from this wiki: [[gismu-frequency.anki|for lo gismu (core verbs]], [[Lojban - cmavo.anki|for lo cmavo (particles)]]), [[lojban-namcu-cmavo.anki|for basic numbers]]. Anki also has a [https://ankiweb.net/ web-interface] that can be synchronized with a local deck.
*[http://quizlet.com/ Quizlet], an online flashcard app. Register and join the Lojban group; downloadable from Quizard on iPod/iPhone and from Kaka Flashcards on Android devices.

== Dictionaries ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/lojban/ Lai sutysisku] and [[La Muplis]]

*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ vlasisku] is an easy-to-use online Lojban <-> English dictionary. It is a convenient way to browse and search the definitions from the jbovlaste database.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] The official Lojban live dictionary project [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/ jbovlaste] contains complete or near-complete dictionaries for Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, and English, and the Lojban-in-Lojban dictionary is progressing rapidly.
:*As provisional measures against a bug of jbovlaste, Kepeken created [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/xKynF3TbDL8/b4KnLJjYCQAJ a bookmarklet for taking back non-ASCII search results on jbovlaste].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] A [[GoldenDict]] distribution for Lojban has numerous dictionaries suitable for everyone. The best offline choice.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://fricukt.tiddlyspot.com/ fricukt] supports any operating system where Chrome, Firefox, Opera or Safari browser can run on. The list of supported devices includes iPads, most Android devices and Chromebooks. Download the app (which is in fact just a sophisticated web-page) using corresponding link there or use it online. Touchscreen-friendly. Also contains some useful tables of cmavo etc.
*[[File:828.sip|link=]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary lojban dictionary] [https://apkpure.com/lojban-dictionary/iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary (backup)] | An android app by Yoshikuni Jujo for quick word lookup.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/stardict.html lojban dictionaries in Stardict format] created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Several languages are available. View them with [http://goldendict.org/ GoldenDict], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/taptionary/id590381520?mt=8 Taptionary], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dictionary-universal/id312088272?mt=8 Dictionary Universal] and so on.
*[http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/vlaste.html lojban dictionary for Kindle] in mobi format created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Mainly in Japanese.
* [http://iuk.hateblo.jp/entry/2016/12/18/010000 ZpDIC for ponjo jbopre] (explained in Japanese). Lojban dictionary for ZpDIC.

== Keyboards ==
* [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.inputmethod.latin&hl=en Google's Gboard keyboard for Android] has Lojban added to its list of available keyboards. Install it and check your "Language & input" settings in order to download the language pack.
** [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.klye.ime.latin Multiling Keyboard] Multiling keyboard is an extremely customizable multilingual keyboard for Android which features a lojban plugin for text prediction. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=klye.plugin.lj|Lojban Plugin]
*[[Lojban keyboard for Mac|A Lojbanic Dvorak Keyboard Layout]] (with ‘ and h swapped) for Macbook Pro

== Glossers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Glosser] as a part of [[la ilmentufa]] project

== Lujvo analysers ==
:* [http://jwodder.freeshell.org/lojban/jvozba.cgi?lujvo= jvozba] created by kamymecraijun
:* [https://sozysozbot.github.io/sozysozbot_jvozba/sozysozbot_jvozba.html jvozba] Implementation of jvozba in JavaScript; created by sozysozbot

== Syntactic Parsers ==
=== Based on the official grammar ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html ilmentufa (official grammar)] - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser using [http://mhagiwara.github.io/camxes.js/ Masato Hagiwara's camxes.js].
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] The [[Official Parser|Official Parser]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [https://github.com/baban/genturfahi la baban's Frontend of Official Parser]
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] (Java) [[camxes|camxes]]
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/jboski www.lojban.org/jboski] - A web-based version of of [[Richard Curnow|Richard Curnow]]'s [[jbofihe|jbofihe]]; acts as a Lojban to English translator. Made by [[Raphal Poss|Raphal Poss]].
* [[OpenCog's parser]]

=== Based on experimental grammars ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [[zantufa]]: "zabna" parsers based on experimental grammars with clear versioning (suitable for use of [[jo'au]]), with many variations for various existing Lojban texts conforming to a previous official grammar (with [[BPFK Section: Ban on consonant-glide-vowel strings|CgV]]) like ''[[la .teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/maltufa-1.1.html maltufa]), as well as those conforming to unofficial grammars like ''[[la .teris. ku noi tigra cu stuvi'e lo barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1.html zantufa]), ''[http://selpahi.de/oz.html lo se mànci te màkfa pe la .oz.]'' (suitable parser variation: [[maftufa]]), ''[http://danmo-rozgu.github.io/kacatraloverba.html ka càtra lo vèrba]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1-cekitaujoibu.html zantufa cekitaujoibus]), etc.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGerna iocixes (dead link)]: Created by la.iocikun. based on [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/zasni+gerna zasni gerna] with [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/MEX+grammar+proposal MEX grammar proposal] of la xorxes. ([https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGernaPeg zasni gerna peg (dead link)])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa (experimental grammar)]: [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser modified by some people with plenty of experimental propositions. ([http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Another frontend of ilmentufa]: Created by la.uilym. based on [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa]. It is not necessarily based on the latest version of [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg].

== Semantic Parsers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [[la tersmu]] by Martin Bays. It translates lojban text to a predicate logic.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cakyrespa la cakyrespa] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Run turtle like LOGO with lojban.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lojysamban la lojysamban] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Prolog with lojban.

== Word lists ==
* [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/lojban-ispell-hashfile.html ispell data files] - Data files to allow Lojban spell checking with ispell
* [http://www.tomeraider.com Tomeraider] files containing the [[gismu|gismu]] list (English and Lojban ordering), the [[cmavo|cmavo]] list ([[cmavo|cmavo]] and [[selma'o|selma'o]] ordering), the [[rafsi|rafsi]] list and the [[BNF|BNF]] grammar, for [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.tr.zip PC] and [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.pdb.zip Palm Pilot]
* [[A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output|A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output]] by [[Jordan DeLong|Jordan DeLong]]
* [https://skami.iocikun.jp/lojban/valsi_tables.html|gismu list and cmavo list in each language available on the jbovlaste including experimental words and cmavo clusters] created by Yoshikuni Jujo from the jbovlaste database.
* [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/dumps/ PDFs and viewable in browser XML latest versions of dictionaries]

== Games ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/ Colossal Cave]. First, the text of this game was translated by [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]] in 1991. [[User:Robin Lee Powell|Robin Lee Powell]] has heroically translated that translation into a working game - see [[Colossal Cave|Colossal Cave]] for that, and also for the Inform Localisation files needed to create your own Lojbanic IF.
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.colourbind.com/ Colour Bind] is a physics platform-puzzler set in an abstract world where gravity is determined not by mass, but by colour. It features a full Lojban translation by Lindar. The game is available on [http://store.steampowered.com/app/208710/ Steam].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.minecraft.net/ Minecraft] is a creative exploration game where you pick and place blocks to build worlds. A large group of contributors have created a community translation of Minecraft, which is included in Minecraft 1.9+. Unfortunately, it needs further translation on [http://crowdin.net/project/minecraft Minecraft's public translation website] in order for it to be complete.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.voxelands.com/ Voxelands] is yet another creative exploration game and comes with an official translation, although it might not be perfect yet. Everyone is welcome to improve it on [https://www.transifex.com/voxelands/voxelands/language/jbo/].
* [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/]] [[File:828.sip|link=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalemthecoven]] [http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/ Town of Salem] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash_Player#Desktop_platforms Flash]) is an online version of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) Mafia] party game; itself is only available in English and in Turkish. However, private party groups can be formed in order to communicate in the language players have agreed upon. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalem The Android version] is currently only available for tablets. Town of Salem related stuff is being translated in [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mlbf9nHkG5TtEZs1tl5aRVQoukvnD8CXAImwraFxxq4/edit?usp=sharing this public Google Spreadsheet] and occasionally check out [https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/search/?query=mafia the Lojban Facebook group] for any proposed private games.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [https://neverball.org/ Neverball] is a platformer ball game. (Currently pending a release after the translation merge. It can be built from git source in the meantime. [https://github.com/bairyn/neverball/ bairyn's fork] has a few extra features.)

== Editing ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] A [http://mbays.freeshell.org/lojban.vim vim filetype plugin] for convenient word-list lookup, auto-lujvoification, and other useful things.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LojbanMode Lojban-mode] syntax highlighting and other support code for emacs
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://gitorious.org/jbotci jbofacki] [https://archive.softwareheritage.org/browse/origin/directory/?origin_url=https://gitorious.org/jbotci/jbotci.git (backup)] is a jbofihe/camxes CLI shell with Tab-completion of valsi and rafsi, colorized word lookups by literal name or string, etc. Intended for increased fun in exploring the construction of Lojban texts/sentences; also useful as a aid to memory (mi'e la kampu). Requires Python 2.5+, and currently also [http://github.com/dag/makfa-cli makfa-cli] for generation + update of dictionary data.

== Machine translation ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://lojban.lilyx.net/zmifanva/ zmifanva] created by [http://masatohagiwara.net/ Masato Hagiwara], Lojban ↔ English Machine Translation Engine based on phrase-based statistical machine translation.
** [https://github.com/youxkei/lojbo-tuhitsku lojbo-tuhitsku] created by youxkei. It obtains tweets, translates them into Lojban and tweets them. It calls Microsoft Translator for translation from Japanese to English, and zmifanva for English to Lojban.

== Other ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014107847567658722055%3A3enx_7t3upo Google custom search engine for Lojban resources]
* [[morphology: analysis programs comparison|Morphology analysis programs comparison]]
Other software can be seen on the [[Talk:Lojbanic Software|talk page]].

[[Category:vlaste saske]]

Lojbanic Software

2026-03-09T18:31:44Z

Bairyn: la'oi Neverball zo'u gafygau

__NOTOC__
Runs on: [[File:828.sip|link=]] - Android, [[File:804.sip|link=]] - iPhone, [[File:831.sip|link=]] - Linux, [[File:830.sip|link=]] - Mac, [[File:829.sip|link=]] - Windows, [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] - in browser or universally.
== Learning Lojban ==
=== Sounds of Lojban ===
*[http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf A tiny application] by [[Matt Arnold]] showing how Lojbanic letters sound
=== Flashcard Programs ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] Memrise - [http://memrise.com/ Memrise] (main page). [[MemriseConventions]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [[File:804.sip|link=]] [http://ichi2.net/anki/index.html Anki] is a free and open source program for "spaced repetition", an effective learning technique. It has a built in system for sharing "decks" where you can get Lojban word lists for training: File / Download / Shared Deck, search for "lojban". If this fails for some reason, you can also download and open the deck manually:
** from https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/Lojban
** or from this wiki: [[gismu-frequency.anki|for lo gismu (core verbs]], [[Lojban - cmavo.anki|for lo cmavo (particles)]]), [[lojban-namcu-cmavo.anki|for basic numbers]]. Anki also has a [https://ankiweb.net/ web-interface] that can be synchronized with a local deck.
*[http://quizlet.com/ Quizlet], an online flashcard app. Register and join the Lojban group; downloadable from Quizard on iPod/iPhone and from Kaka Flashcards on Android devices.

== Dictionaries ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/lojban/ Lai sutysisku] and [[La Muplis]]

*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ vlasisku] is an easy-to-use online Lojban <-> English dictionary. It is a convenient way to browse and search the definitions from the jbovlaste database.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] The official Lojban live dictionary project [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/ jbovlaste] contains complete or near-complete dictionaries for Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, and English, and the Lojban-in-Lojban dictionary is progressing rapidly.
:*As provisional measures against a bug of jbovlaste, Kepeken created [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/xKynF3TbDL8/b4KnLJjYCQAJ a bookmarklet for taking back non-ASCII search results on jbovlaste].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] A [[GoldenDict]] distribution for Lojban has numerous dictionaries suitable for everyone. The best offline choice.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://fricukt.tiddlyspot.com/ fricukt] supports any operating system where Chrome, Firefox, Opera or Safari browser can run on. The list of supported devices includes iPads, most Android devices and Chromebooks. Download the app (which is in fact just a sophisticated web-page) using corresponding link there or use it online. Touchscreen-friendly. Also contains some useful tables of cmavo etc.
*[[File:828.sip|link=]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary lojban dictionary] [https://apkpure.com/lojban-dictionary/iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary (backup)] | An android app by Yoshikuni Jujo for quick word lookup.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/stardict.html lojban dictionaries in Stardict format] created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Several languages are available. View them with [http://goldendict.org/ GoldenDict], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/taptionary/id590381520?mt=8 Taptionary], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dictionary-universal/id312088272?mt=8 Dictionary Universal] and so on.
*[http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/vlaste.html lojban dictionary for Kindle] in mobi format created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Mainly in Japanese.
* [http://iuk.hateblo.jp/entry/2016/12/18/010000 ZpDIC for ponjo jbopre] (explained in Japanese). Lojban dictionary for ZpDIC.

== Keyboards ==
* [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.inputmethod.latin&hl=en Google's Gboard keyboard for Android] has Lojban added to its list of available keyboards. Install it and check your "Language & input" settings in order to download the language pack.
** [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.klye.ime.latin Multiling Keyboard] Multiling keyboard is an extremely customizable multilingual keyboard for Android which features a lojban plugin for text prediction. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=klye.plugin.lj|Lojban Plugin]
*[[Lojban keyboard for Mac|A Lojbanic Dvorak Keyboard Layout]] (with ‘ and h swapped) for Macbook Pro

== Glossers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Glosser] as a part of [[la ilmentufa]] project

== Lujvo analysers ==
:* [http://jwodder.freeshell.org/lojban/jvozba.cgi?lujvo= jvozba] created by kamymecraijun
:* [https://sozysozbot.github.io/sozysozbot_jvozba/sozysozbot_jvozba.html jvozba] Implementation of jvozba in JavaScript; created by sozysozbot

== Syntactic Parsers ==
=== Based on the official grammar ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html ilmentufa (official grammar)] - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser using [http://mhagiwara.github.io/camxes.js/ Masato Hagiwara's camxes.js].
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] The [[Official Parser|Official Parser]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [https://github.com/baban/genturfahi la baban's Frontend of Official Parser]
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] (Java) [[camxes|camxes]]
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/jboski www.lojban.org/jboski] - A web-based version of of [[Richard Curnow|Richard Curnow]]'s [[jbofihe|jbofihe]]; acts as a Lojban to English translator. Made by [[Raphal Poss|Raphal Poss]].
* [[OpenCog's parser]]

=== Based on experimental grammars ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [[zantufa]]: "zabna" parsers based on experimental grammars with clear versioning (suitable for use of [[jo'au]]), with many variations for various existing Lojban texts conforming to a previous official grammar (with [[BPFK Section: Ban on consonant-glide-vowel strings|CgV]]) like ''[[la .teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/maltufa-1.1.html maltufa]), as well as those conforming to unofficial grammars like ''[[la .teris. ku noi tigra cu stuvi'e lo barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1.html zantufa]), ''[http://selpahi.de/oz.html lo se mànci te màkfa pe la .oz.]'' (suitable parser variation: [[maftufa]]), ''[http://danmo-rozgu.github.io/kacatraloverba.html ka càtra lo vèrba]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1-cekitaujoibu.html zantufa cekitaujoibus]), etc.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGerna iocixes (dead link)]: Created by la.iocikun. based on [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/zasni+gerna zasni gerna] with [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/MEX+grammar+proposal MEX grammar proposal] of la xorxes. ([https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGernaPeg zasni gerna peg (dead link)])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa (experimental grammar)]: [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser modified by some people with plenty of experimental propositions. ([http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Another frontend of ilmentufa]: Created by la.uilym. based on [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa]. It is not necessarily based on the latest version of [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg].

== Semantic Parsers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [[la tersmu]] by Martin Bays. It translates lojban text to a predicate logic.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cakyrespa la cakyrespa] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Run turtle like LOGO with lojban.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lojysamban la lojysamban] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Prolog with lojban.

== Word lists ==
* [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/lojban-ispell-hashfile.html ispell data files] - Data files to allow Lojban spell checking with ispell
* [http://www.tomeraider.com Tomeraider] files containing the [[gismu|gismu]] list (English and Lojban ordering), the [[cmavo|cmavo]] list ([[cmavo|cmavo]] and [[selma'o|selma'o]] ordering), the [[rafsi|rafsi]] list and the [[BNF|BNF]] grammar, for [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.tr.zip PC] and [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.pdb.zip Palm Pilot]
* [[A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output|A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output]] by [[Jordan DeLong|Jordan DeLong]]
* [https://skami.iocikun.jp/lojban/valsi_tables.html|gismu list and cmavo list in each language available on the jbovlaste including experimental words and cmavo clusters] created by Yoshikuni Jujo from the jbovlaste database.
* [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/dumps/ PDFs and viewable in browser XML latest versions of dictionaries]

== Games ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/ Colossal Cave]. First, the text of this game was translated by [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]] in 1991. [[User:Robin Lee Powell|Robin Lee Powell]] has heroically translated that translation into a working game - see [[Colossal Cave|Colossal Cave]] for that, and also for the Inform Localisation files needed to create your own Lojbanic IF.
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.colourbind.com/ Colour Bind] is a physics platform-puzzler set in an abstract world where gravity is determined not by mass, but by colour. It features a full Lojban translation by Lindar. The game is available on [http://store.steampowered.com/app/208710/ Steam].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.minecraft.net/ Minecraft] is a creative exploration game where you pick and place blocks to build worlds. A large group of contributors have created a community translation of Minecraft, which is included in Minecraft 1.9+. Unfortunately, it needs further translation on [http://crowdin.net/project/minecraft Minecraft's public translation website] in order for it to be complete.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.voxelands.com/ Voxelands] is yet another creative exploration game and comes with an official translation, although it might not be perfect yet. Everyone is welcome to improve it on [https://www.transifex.com/voxelands/voxelands/language/jbo/].
* [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/]] [[File:828.sip|link=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalemthecoven]] [http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/ Town of Salem] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash_Player#Desktop_platforms Flash]) is an online version of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) Mafia] party game; itself is only available in English and in Turkish. However, private party groups can be formed in order to communicate in the language players have agreed upon. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalem The Android version] is currently only available for tablets. Town of Salem related stuff is being translated in [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mlbf9nHkG5TtEZs1tl5aRVQoukvnD8CXAImwraFxxq4/edit?usp=sharing this public Google Spreadsheet] and occasionally check out [https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/search/?query=mafia the Lojban Facebook group] for any proposed private games.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [https://github.com/bairyn/neverball/ Neverball (bairyn's fork)] is a platformer ball game. (The https://github.com/Neverball/neverball/ fork has an outdated translation version and so far accepting the pull request to update it is ignored. I recommend using the newer translation (in bairyn's fork) for translation fixes and touch-ups.)

== Editing ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] A [http://mbays.freeshell.org/lojban.vim vim filetype plugin] for convenient word-list lookup, auto-lujvoification, and other useful things.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LojbanMode Lojban-mode] syntax highlighting and other support code for emacs
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://gitorious.org/jbotci jbofacki] [https://archive.softwareheritage.org/browse/origin/directory/?origin_url=https://gitorious.org/jbotci/jbotci.git (backup)] is a jbofihe/camxes CLI shell with Tab-completion of valsi and rafsi, colorized word lookups by literal name or string, etc. Intended for increased fun in exploring the construction of Lojban texts/sentences; also useful as a aid to memory (mi'e la kampu). Requires Python 2.5+, and currently also [http://github.com/dag/makfa-cli makfa-cli] for generation + update of dictionary data.

== Machine translation ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://lojban.lilyx.net/zmifanva/ zmifanva] created by [http://masatohagiwara.net/ Masato Hagiwara], Lojban ↔ English Machine Translation Engine based on phrase-based statistical machine translation.
** [https://github.com/youxkei/lojbo-tuhitsku lojbo-tuhitsku] created by youxkei. It obtains tweets, translates them into Lojban and tweets them. It calls Microsoft Translator for translation from Japanese to English, and zmifanva for English to Lojban.

== Other ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014107847567658722055%3A3enx_7t3upo Google custom search engine for Lojban resources]
* [[morphology: analysis programs comparison|Morphology analysis programs comparison]]
Other software can be seen on the [[Talk:Lojbanic Software|talk page]].

[[Category:vlaste saske]]

la nicte cadzu Errata

2026-02-24T21:53:34Z

Bairyn: lo notci be zo spogau cu se jmina

=Words not in jbovlaste that are used in LNC=
* nergau
* sligau
* sakcpu
=Chapter 1=
== Section 1.1 ==
* la nicte cadzu ba mulno spogau lo se terpa da poi fanva dei lo na logji bangu
** NightWalker will fully destroy the feared thing with a translator of this utterance into a non-logical language?
*** the place structure of spogau is "g1 destroys, using/through event d1, object/person d2" so it's "NightWalker will gully destroy with fierce things them, who translate this (the story) into a not logical language"
*** «-gau» normally prepends an agent place, so this is not actually an error.
** lu '''ro da poi fanva''' li'o li'u xu nai .i da'i cizra fa lo nu xusra lo du'u bi'ai ku su'o da ba fanva
* «lu '''la susan cu mutce lerci le nu penmi le mensi be ri''' li'u» .i .ei basti fa su'o simsa be «lu la .susan. cu mutce jai lerci fai lo ka penmi lo mensi be ri li'u»
* i ku'i mutce lerci .i se ki'u bo ti'a le xance sy klama lo manku
** However, it was very late; this was a reason for (behind her hand) Susan going into the darkness. -- What the heck does ti'a le xance mean there?
*** imagine walking into a pitch black room. do you stick your hands into your pockets or rather hold your hands in front of you so you don't run into things?
* i se mu'i bo sy lacpu le zdani claxu
** Did you forget remna there?
*** na srana si sarcu
* i sy boi za'u roi bajra gi'e klaku fi (tu'a) ry
** I think you need a tu'a at the end.
* .i ba zi bo sy facki lo du'u lo bitmu cufanmo le dargu
** (in first sentence) /cufanmo/cu fanmo/ <nowiki>adding a space after "cu"</nowiki>
* .i sy cu djica lo nu cliva vau mu'i lo nu lerci
** (in last sentence) /sy cu djica/sy djica/ <nowiki>removing superfluous (I think) "cu"</nowiki>
* "masytcusets" is not a valid cmene with the proposed morphology. xorxes said it'll probably become more lenient in the future, though.
* .i lu '''.i la .susan. cu so'i roi mabla bacru''' li'u zo'u:
** pe'i lo nu smujmi lu mabla bacru li'u cu se sarcu lo nu slabu fa lo me la gimste moi be tu'a zo mabla .i pei lu bacru lo malvla li'u
* .i lu '''.i mi pu tadni lo nu damba ca lo nu mi citno''' li'u zo'u:
** la'a lo se tadni cu srana ke po'o nai sai lo nu citno

== Section 1.2 ==
* ni'o ta'o lo ve xumjimcelxa'i ca'o gusni ne'i lo grusi recta be le crida ca lo nu re tu'urbirka cu jibni binxo
** s/recta/rectu/
* .i .ui ny jgari ze'o lo barda kosta lo sinxa fagri grana gi'e renro ri le moklu be le crida
** If I understand you right, I think you need ze'omo'i.
* .i do ba djica lo nu tavla da
** What is da here? The card? The only reasonable meaning to me would involve mi, not da. Or maybe you meant fi da.
*** possibly he means LNC with da. or the phone number on the card
* .i ji'a ko na terpa lo mukti be mi
** '''lo mukti be tu'a mi''' ? Or maybe '''be fi mi''' (what does the "volitioner" correspond to?'''
* '''le cfari be le cmalu dargu'''
** "x1 [[state/event/process]] commences/initiates/starts/begins to occur;" Maybe something like: '''krasi''' (though nothing moves if the road had not been made in this order), or '''terpluta''' (though it doesn't imply any road), or '''terdargu''', which seems to me to be the best one. ?
* '''.i ku'i no drata be mi'a ba krici do'''
** Either '''tu'a do''', or '''fi do''', or it is another definition you don't like?
* '''lo ti kanla zo'u vi'a xekri'''
** "plain black"? If I didn't know this in English, it wouldn't make any sense to me. How?
* '''carna le gusta po lo nu penmi'''
** '''carna fi le gusta'''
* '''le nanmu to lo voksa cu ju'o mapti lo nanmu toi cusku lo glico panra be ''' etc etc
** Should be "cu cusku"
== Section 1.3 ==
* .i sy pe'isku lo glico panra xe lu li'a lo nu damba lo crida cu jibri la deivid to'i cmalu nu denpa toi
** What the heck is that xe doing there?
*** probably should have been be
* '''.i ca lo nu sy xruti lo zdani vau'''
** The gismu list says '''se'ixru''' replaces '''xruti''' here well.
* '''.i sy frili morji lo tcila be le nu gunta be'o gi'e pe'isku lo glico panra'''
** A redunant apostrophe in "peisku".
* '''nibli lo nu mi mulno lo ka fenki'''
** I guess, '''jai''' is needed somewhere near '''mulno'''.
* .i sy pe'isku lo glico panra xe lu
** s/pe'i/pei/;s/xe/be/ Er... Just replace all '''pe'isku''' to '''peisku'''? Maybe that's because there's no real "yot" in English?
== Section 1.4 ==
* Did you really want pencu at the end of 1.4.1?
* .i ri cilce ganlu simsa
** s/ganlu/ganlo/ in 1.4.2
* .i ku'i .e'u nai sai lo nu do crida kalte binxo cu rinka lo nu do joi pa crida ba se fatri lo ruxse'i be do .e lo menli be do .i la nicte cadzu cu ro roi se sidju lo crida poi jamna lo crida poi simsa le crida poi troci lo nu catra do .i lo nu crida kalte cu na frili li'u
** You need a be'o in there to keep it from being the soul of you and your mind.
* '''sy tugni desku lo stedu'''
** sy tugni gasnu lenu lo stedu desku ? sy jai tugni se desku lo stedu ?
== Section 1.5 ==
* ta'o la'e lu tarci bu li'u cu sinxa lo sinvi selsku ve cu'u la .irk.
** sinvi -> sivni
* mi djisku lu troci lo nu cilre la lojban li'u
** either djisku -> stidi or mi -> do
* xamgu lo nu do na spuda
** i think this needs a fa or se
=Chapter 2=
== Section 2.1 ==
* lu .ue sai y xu sfasa su'o da lo nu punji ra ti li'u ju'e
** Should be "nu sfasa", I think.
* '''ni'o py nergau lo tolcitno je mudri vorme .i sy viska lo jinme nerklaji poi li'a citno'''
** jinme nerklaji? klaji laj street 'avenue' x1 is a street/avenue/lane/drive/cul-de-sac/way/alley/<nowiki>road</nowiki> at x2 accessing x3
* '''.i lo nenri vorme cu jinme gi'e za'a tsali'''
** Maybe, '''vrogai''' or '''vrobi'u'''?
* '''.i .u'u mi lo ka xanka cu dukse lo nu citka djica'''
** If this means "Sorry, but my nervousness is more than my hunger", '''dukse''' doesn't work here. Don't know what does.
* '''gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri'''
** fi lo nu
* '''.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa'''
** fi le
* '''gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri'''
** fi lo nu
* '''.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa'''
** fi le
* '''.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuksu fi dy'''
** s/cuksu/cusku/ What does the first part mean, anyway? ry imitates a Middle Polynesian using an imaginary skirt?
* '''.i ku'i mi kanpe lo nu do na se spaji'''
** kanpe ki'a
== Section 2.2 ==
* ni'o loi ci prenu cu casnu lo na vajni ca'o lo nu xruti le sanmi kumfa
** '''xruti fi le sanmi kumfa'''
* '''.i sy zgana lo nu le flira be py cu na'e gleki binxo gi'e rivbi dy''' "rivbi riv avoid 'evade' x1 avoids/evades/shuns/escapes/skirts <nowiki>fate</nowiki> x2 (event)"
** So '''tu'a dy'''?
* s/sabju/sabji/
* '''.i sy cuksu lu mi ka'e'''
** s/cuksu/cusku/
* '''.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuslu fi dy'''
** s/cuslu/cusku/ ?
<pre>
> > '''ei''' shows how the speaker feels things ought to be, not an
> > oblgation by the speaker.
>
> Erm, how do you figure that?
Usage, usefulness, consistency, and even CLL supports that
interpretation.
Usage: that's how I've always used it and that's how I've seen
it used too:
<Taliesin> do .ei ciska bau la lojban
<xod> .ei su'odo rivbi le nu penmi .oi
<xod> .ei la tsali cu fanva
<zef> ei zo te basti zo to di'u
Usefulness: The feeling of obligation on the part of the
speaker corresponds to the feeling of how things ought to be
when the speaker is the agent, so it is a more restricted
sense. There is not much point in restricting '''ei''' to sentences
where '''mi''' is the agent.
Consistency: the whole e-series of attitudinals is used for
attitudes of the speaker towards a hypothetical situation.
CLL has two examples with '''.ei'''. The first one is funny:
3.10) .ei mi tisna
le karce ctilyvau
<nowiki>obligation</nowiki> I fill
the car-type-of petroleum-container.
I should fill the car's gas tank.
It is not decisive because '''mi''' is the agent, although the
English translation is wrong. It really should be "I should
become stuffed with the car's gas tank". (To be fair, I think
the place structure of '''tisna''' was changed at some point.)
But the other example:
11.5) pe'i la kartagos. .ei se daspo
<nowiki>I opine!</nowiki> Carthage <nowiki>obligation</nowiki> is-destroyed.
In my opinion, Carthage should be destroyed.
clearly shows that '''.ei''' is about how the speaker feels things
ought to be.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
</pre>
== Section 2.3 ==
* to'u nai jai se srera fai pa valsi po lo ro moi jufra po lo pa moi jufmei po lo 2 pi 3 pi'e 2 moi se fendi i mi stidi lo nu zo marxa cu basti zo maxra
* '''pa cnebo jinsi jadni sy .i le jinsi'''
** jinsi ki'a
* s/cuksu/cusku/
* s/maxra/marxa/
<pre>
> > > fe lu .oi do pu kakne lo nu jdegau mi tu'a le janco
> >
> > s/jdegau/kajde
>
> Nope. kajde is non-agentive.
'''jdegau fi mi fo tu'a le janco''' then?
> > > .i zo'o nai mi ca ponse pa barda ke skapi ciblu
> >
> > I think this is pilka more than skapi.
> > skapi is the material, it is the pilka once
> > it has been removed from the animal.
>
> I disagree. skapi need not have been removed, and pilka includes
> fruit rinds and so on. I'm going to ask the archivists about this.
I certainly don't dispute '''pilka''' includes fruit rinds and tree bark.
There are many body-parts that work both for animals and plants.
'''pilka''' is clearly a part-whole relationship.
'''skapi''', on the other hand, is a product-source relationship, like
'''silka''' and '''sunla'''. I think gismu place structures should be much
more regular than what they are, but in some cases there are very
clear classes of place structures, like specimen-species, part-whole,
substance-composition, substance-source. '''pilka''' is clearly
part-whole and '''skapi''' is clearly substance-source.
(I'm not exactly sure what to make of Lojbab's response on this.)
</pre>
Section 2.4
<pre>
> > > .i ji'a xy rinka so'u da poi xlali
> >
> > I read this as "also, it causes a few bad things", and was
> > expecting to be told what they were. I think what D might
> > have meant is that it doesn't cause any important bad thing?
>
> s/so'u/pi so'u roi/
A fraction of an occasion?
> > > lo ni sy certu cu banzu lo nu na birti fa lo nu lo kalte cu
> > > mrobi'i
> >
> > s/mrobi'i/mrobi'o
> >
> > I don't understand the sentence though. Susan's skill was
> > enough to not be certain of a hunter's death?
>
> Yes. "She's good enough that it's not a certainly that she'll get
> one of us killed".
>
> s/birti/ju'o gasnu/; see if that helps.
Hmm, ok. The '''fa''' is wrong though.
> > > .i ku'i ca zi bo ky nergau le citka kumfa to ri vasru vy jo'u sy
> > > toi
> >
> > I think we already knew that V and S were in the room.
>
> No, we had no idea what room they were in.
...
> The goal was: "K entered the dining room, where d & s were".
I see. I would have said '''noi vy jo'u sy zvati ke'a''', but I guess
your phrase is not wrong.
> > You seem to use '''diklo''' a lot, I don't really know what it means.
>
> x1 is near to x2 within possible range x3
Similar to '''jibni''' then? But the gimste uses "locus". If you look
at all the definitions that use that word you get a different idea.
> > > .i re makcu remna cu tcetce terpa lo nu lo fagri <nowiki>...</nowiki> cu jibni
> > > vo'a? gi'e jbini le makcu bi'i le verba
>
> What does vo'a bind to there? Do we even know?
'''re makcu prena''' supposedly.
> > Otherwise we get the fire between between the adults and the
> > child.
>
> Erm, *yes*. That's the point. The child is causing fire to project
> from emself towards the parents.
"between between"?
My point is that '''jbini ko'a bi'i ko'e''', with the duplicated "between",
is strange. It's '''jbini ko'a jo'u ko'e''' or '''zvati ko'a bi'i ko'e'''.
> > > ni'o .a'o cai sy ca'o na bajra gi'e ku'i jgari pa makcu gi'e
> > > lacpu ri fa'a lo vomre
> >
> > s/vomre/vorme
> >
> > "Hopefully, S is not running but grabbing one adult and pulling
> > them towards the door"??
>
> "with great hope" was the goal. i.e. she's scared out of her mind
> but trying anyways.
That's not my understanding of how '''a'o''' works.
> > > ni'o sy za'u re'u zgana lo nu lo blupinxe cu ka'e sezymuvgau? se
> > > kai lo mutce mutce sutra
> >
> > s/sezymuvgau/muvdu
>
> Erm, no. muvdu is not agentive.
It's not non-agentive either. It's neutral in that respect.
I can understand using '''sezmuvgau''' when it is for some reason
important to emphasize the agentiveness, but not every time.
Why don't you say '''sezklagau''' for explicitly agentive '''klama''',
or '''sezvi'egau''' for explicitly agentive '''vitke''', or '''sezypipygau'''
for explicitly agentive '''plipe''', etc.
Anyway, that's just a minor point of style. (You don't need the
y-hyphen BTW.)
On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 07:32:46AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>
> > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e
> > > > xenru cusku
> > >
> > > s/fargau/cliva ?
> >
> > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.
>
> Oh, you probably meant '''dargau''' then. '''fargau''' is from '''farna
> gasnu'''.
Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.
> You only need a y-hyphen after '''r''' in '''ryr''', every other consonant
> is ok after '''r'''.
Cool.
> > I want him to be chanting truth tables; suggestions *very*
> > welcome.
>
> You mean you want to express logical notation in plain language?
More or less, yes.
> The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation
> are one and the same (or very close).
True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in
<nowiki>this</nowiki> fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.
> '''bu'a i ja bu'e''' entails, well, '''ga bu'a gi bu'e'''. You could say
> '''lo du'u ga bu'a gi bu'e cu nibli lo du'u ga lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu
> gi lo du'u bu'e cu jetnu''', but that's like saying '''lo du'u bu'a cu
> nibli lo du'u lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu''', it's not really related to
> truth tables.
As long as it's hyper-logical, it fits the story, but that's not
really what I was looking for, no. I suppose a Lojban definition of
.a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.
> > > > .i ji'a le barda ke vlagi ctebi cu tunlo gi'e xunre
> > > ...
> > > > .i le pinji cu pu tunlo je ke mutce jdari ke'e binxo
> > >
> > > tunlo ma?
> >
> > punli again. "swollen"
>
> I think you forgot to change one of them. But '''punli''' sounds too
> permanent for this. Maybe '''se preja'''?
Good idea.
-Robin
> > > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e
> > > > > xenru cusku
> > > >
> > > > s/fargau/cliva ?
> > >
> > > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.
> >
> > Oh, you probably meant '''dargau''' then. '''fargau''' is from '''farna
> > gasnu'''.
>
> Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.
Make the bear be on the outside of what?
> > The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation
> > are one and the same (or very close).
>
> True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in
> <nowiki>this</nowiki> fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.
I wrote a definition for '''.e''' in jbovlaste using '''kanxe'''.
All logical connectives are in a logical sense bridi connectives. The
sumti connectives are just an abbreviated form '''ko'a V ko'e broda'''
= '''gV ko'a broda gi ko'e broda''', but that is independent of the truth
tables.
> I suppose a Lojban definition of
> .a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.
It would have to be in terms of '''vlina'''. I wrote one
in jbovlaste, which can probably be improved.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
</pre>
== Section 2.5 ==
<pre>
> Yes, but *normally* things consist of more than their minds; this
> one does not.
>
> How about:
>
> .i lo nu lo menli be la ctino po'u la ctino cu se daspo cu mintu
> lonu ri se daspo
s/po'u/no'u and I'll buy it.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
</pre>
* .i se ki'u bo sy pilno lo ckana poi vy facki va'u sy gi'e ba zi sipna
** s/va'u/se va'u/
=Chapter 3=
== Section 3.1 ==
<pre>
> > >le jmive noi cpana le stizu cu traji lo ka barda vau
> > > fo ro jmive poi sy pu viska
> >
> > s/ro/lo ro
>
> They mean the same thing: being bigger than each thing when compared
> seperately is exactly the same as being bigger than all of them.
But x4 of traji is not a thing to compare with x1, it is the lot
among which x1 is the most. If x1 is not among x4, traji makes no
sense. Something cannot be biggest among something else that does
not include it.
> > > .i ze'u ca ro djedi lo ni remna cu banro .i se ni'i bo lo ni
> > > blupinxe cu ji'a banro li se ni'i bo ro lo pu blupinxe zbasu cu
> > > ca vitke pa remna
> >
> > s/li/.i
> >
> > (I don't get the logic of the entailment though.)
>
> "All those who, in the past, possessed vampires are also currently
> doing so."
I read:
During all days, the amount of humans grew.
Therefore, the amount of vampires grew also. (ji'a is misplaced BTW, it
says that the amount of vampires grew in addition to doing something else.)
Therefore, every past vampire maker visits exactly one human.
I don't get either of the entailments. Why does more humans necessarily
entail more vampires? Why does that entail that each vampire maker
visits exactly one human?
> > > .i sy ba zi lo nu sanli ne'i le djine cu ganse lo barda neji poi
> > > le vitke cu pilno ke'a lo nu xruti le munje be sy
> >
> > s/neji/nerji
> >
> > I'd say '''zi ba lo nu sanli''', or '''ba lo nu sanli ... cu zi ganse'''.
> > You used displacement magnitude specification after '''zi'''.
>
> Huh?
You are using '''zi''' here to tag a reference point instead of a
displacement magnitude. In other parts you have used ZI to tag
magnitudes. I prefer the latter, but in any case you should
stick to one convention, I think.
</pre>
== Section 3.3 ==
<pre>
> > > ni'o lo te nuzba cu ba ze'a se preti lo se du'u ta'i ma
> >
> > s/se preti/te preti fi
> > s/ma/ma kau
>
> I disagree with that last one. The reporter was asking a question.
'''ma''' is the author asking a question.
'''ma kau''' is the author saying that the reporter asks a question
(i.e. it's an indirect question.)
> You seem to have not gotten that that was what I meant by '''lo jitro'''
> throughout this chapter; is there something I could have done
> better?
I'll read that part again tomorrow.
> > > .i ji'a la'a ta snuti jarco lo diklo be lo jitro
> >
> > '''lo diklo be lo jitro'''?
>
> The location of the controller. Of the spider-demons. AKA the
> master of puppets.
I think I took that to mean "a locus on the controller". I would
have used '''lo se zvati be lo jitro''' to refer to its location.
The comment on '''diklo''': "[indicates a specific location/value within
a range; e.g. a hits b. What is the locality on b that a hits?]"
suggests that '''diklo''' means "x1 is a locus on x2" but then I don't
know what to do with x3. If '''diklo''' means "x1 is at or near the
vicinity of x2, within range x3", then you would need
'''lo se diklo be lo jitro''', no?
> You seem to have not gotten that that was what I meant by '''lo jitro'''
> throughout this chapter; is there something I could have done
> better?
I think I thought at one point that the spider creature was lo jitro,
but eventually it became clear.
I found a few more things to comment on:
> .i ko spogau ta
'''ko spogau fi ta''', or '''gau ko daspo ta''' or '''ko jai gau daspo ta'''.
(I'd probably just use '''ko daspo ta''', since I don't see much point
in the separation of events from other space-time objects.)
> .i le nanmu cu simlu lo ka badri gi'e xanka vau sy
s/vau/kei or vau vau
> la'a le nanmu cu fenki gansu
s/gansu/tarti
> da'i la'a mi stidi lo nu ko ko kurji .i ku'i mi na gasnu
s/gasnu/go'i
> .i le nanmu cu cizra je to'e certu gasnu lo nu punji
> lo jdini lo jubme
s/gasnu/zukte
I suppose '''gasnu''' is not wrong, but it's odd. "He made
(someone) put the money on the table."
You could also just say '''cizra je to'e certu punji'''.
</pre>
== Section 3.4 ==
<pre>
> > > .i ji'a le xance be le ninmu cu mutce ve xrani
> >
> > s/ve/se
>
> No.
The hand is very much an injury, rather than being much injured?
> > > .i mi na jarco lo drata bangu noi cmima la .gliban. jo'u la .sanban?.
> >
> > s/cmima/mixre ?
>
> No; each of them speaks one language, but in some cases (read: the
> house cleaner) it's Spanish.
Then I'd say '''lo drata bangu no'u la gliban jo'u la sanban'''.
If you insist with '''cmima''', then you need someting with members
in x2, so probably '''ce''' instead of '''jo'u'''.
> > > .i ga'a sy lo nu le jitro cu gasnu lo makfa cu nitcu lo nu da'i ra
> >
> > s/nitcu/se sarcu
>
> Both are correct; I don't see the difference.
Events don't have needs, that's all.
> > > lu ju'o le fekcrida cu menli vitke lo blupinxe .i se ni'i bo
> > > sipna .i ku'i kakne lo nu za'i cikna binxo ca lo nu menli vitke
> > > lo blupinxe .i la'a la .stefen. gasnu lo nu cikna binxo li'u
> >
> > I don't understand. Who did la stefen wake up?
>
> The demon that the spiders were stolen from, who is probably a
> possessor of a vampire.
"Certainly the demon possessed a vampire. Therefore (someone) sleeps.
But they can awaken when possessing a vampire. Probably Stephen woke
them up."
Not terribly clear what's going on.
> > > .i cy dunda lo darno po le skori .a bu poi ca'o smaji cisma
> >
> > s/lo darno po/lo fanmo be ?
>
> The difference being?
Some distant thing pertaining specifically to the rope? If he handed
her an end of the rope, it probably wasn't very far, or did he throw
it to her from a long distance away? And far from whom?
</pre>
== Section 3.5 ==
<pre>
> > > .i sy cusku lu .y. xu da panzi pa blupinxe joi pa remna li'u
> >
> > Maybe she should ask '''xu lo blupinxe cu rorci da lo remna'''
>
> No; panzi is biological specifically, which is what I wanted.
So is '''rorci'''. I just thought '''rorci''' seemed more to the point.
> > > .i ku'i lo blupinxe cu ka'e jimve ze'u lo cacra be li so'o no no
> >
> > s/jimve/jmive
> >
> > (I interpret '''so'o no no''' as something like "several or 00",
>
> *NO*. so'o is a digit, IMO, unless used by itself.
Not like '''ro ci''' for "all three" then?
</pre>
=Chapter 4=
== Section 4.1 ==
* .i la .djan. cusku lu go'i .i ti malgletu month li'u
** s/month/mo
* .i la .djan. rigni je fandu dunda le xatra
** s/fandu/ bandu,dandu,nandu???
* .i la .djan. catlu la .kricnan. se kai lo ka dy krici lo du'u ky mulno -mentally ill-?
** menli bilma?
* doi jatna ko cpedu fi su'o le ro pulji poi bu'u se jibri ze'u lo nance be li su'o re
** s/nance/nanca
** s/cpedu/te preti fo/ ?
* la nicte cadzu cu badgau fo da poi do no kakne lo nu xanri
** s/no/na
* doi .doris. ko facki pa pulji poi bu'u se jibri ze'a lo nanca be li su'o re
** I wouldn't mind redefining '''facki''' so that that makes sense.
*.i ko minde lo nu ri vitke mi
** s/minde lo nu ri/minde ri lo nu
* lu mi na cinri .i ko pilno lo pa moi poi do viska li'u
** s/cinri/se cinri
* ni'o ba ze'i lo mentu be li ji'i re to la .djan. fengu catlu la .kricnan. ca'o ri toi
** s/ze'i/zi
** ri = la kricnan, la djan, li ji'i re, lo mentu be li ji'i re?
* .i la .djan. cusku lu xu do pu zgana le se jadni po la nicte cadzu li'u
** s/se jadni/jadni/ ?
* .i la .djan. cusku lu xu do troci lo nu facki da poi pilno le se jadni li'u
** '''da poi se jadni''' or '''da poi pilno le jadni''', I think. (Same comment as before for '''facki'''.)
* .i do ba'e na djuno ma kau poi mi ka'e krici
** '''do ba'e na djuno lo du'u mi ka'e krici ma kau''' The thing that they don't know is not the thing that he can believe.
* lu le se jadni cu se jadni lo na cumki jmive li'u
** s/se jadni/jadni/ ?
* .i ky zi krici lo du'u le risna be le jatna cu fliba
** s/zi/ze'i/ ?
* ko ji'a cliva pu lo nu mi catra do se pi'o le mi xanxe
** s/xanxe/xance
*.i la .kricnan. ca gasnu lo te minde
** s/gasnu/tinbe/ ?
== Section 4.2 ==
* pe'u .stefen. ko ciksi lo krinu be lo nu mi joi do ku? po'o? cu vitke lo pulji
** '''ku''' closes '''lo''' there. '''joi''' doesn't have a terminator. In this case '''mi'o po'o''' will do what you want, but I don't know what the general solution is.
* lo tadji be lo nu terpa co gasnu lo remna kei
** s/terpa co gasnu/tepygau
* ni'o la .susan. cu jgari le vorme be lo pulji dinju se va'u la .stefen. noi dasni lo kagni taxfu poi sy na pu viska ku'o zi'e noi cusku lo se du'u ckire
** s/ku'o/ku'o ku'o (unless it was the garment that said thank you)
* ni'o ba bo le rinsa cu xruti gi'e gidva cy .e sy le cmalu kumfa
** I think we need a word for "x1 guides x2 to x3 (place)", or '''gidva''' will end up being distorted. Maybe '''klagi'a''' "x1 guides x2 to x3 from x4 via x5 by means x6".
* .i mi minde do'o lo nu do'o sisti lo to'e flalu gasnu
** s/gasnu/se zukte
* lu to'i le jatna ca krixa li'u ju'e lu .i se ki'u bo do doi mabla cmacma remna .e? ro do mabla cizra pendo ba binxo lo pinfu ze'u lo ni do ba zu'u jmive li'u
** There may be some problem with to'i and the quote sequence there. '''ro do mabla cizra pendo''' is a bridi, not the same as the sumti '''ro lo do mabla cizra pendo'''. '''ze'u''' gives the duration of the '''binxo''' event, not the duration of the resulting state. That would be '''lo pinfu be ze'u ...''' for example. s/zu'u/ze'u/ ?
* .i ku'i mi na cinri
** s/cinri/se cinri
* mi ba'e na cinmo tu'a le krici be do
** s/krici/se krici
* .i ku'i da'i do xairgau mi'a gi'a zunti le gunka be mi'a
** s/gunka/se gunka
* le pendo be do .e le lanzu be do .e ba bo do
** That's '''le pendo be (do e le lanzu be (do e ba bo do]'''.
* .i cy co'a cladu kriza
** s/kriza/krixa
* ni'o le skapi be le jatna cu pu co'a skari lo ka mutce kandi
** Is that the pelt/skin/hide/leather _from_ the captain? I'd use '''pilka''', unless we redefine '''skapi''' as a body part instead of a type of material.
* .i ba bo le jatna cu viska le vidni vreji poi vasru le jatna .e ci voksa .e lo fagri ku? po'o gi'e tcetce terpa
** One way say it would be: poi vasru no na'e bo le jatna jo'u ci voksa jo'u lo fagri
* .i ba zi bo le jatna cu klama le xabju gi'e ze'a klaku
** s/xabju/se xabju, zdani
== Section 4.3 ==
*.i mi mutce certu lo ka jundi .i mu'i ma du cusku
** s/du/do
*.i ma'a damba ry ky gy ze'u li nanca be li so'o no no
** s/li nanca/lo nanca
* .i le jatna ca lo nu le girzu re'o le vorme be le jesydinju cu cusku lu do na zifre lo nu nergau li'u
** missing selbri
* .i se ri'a bo le ro girzu cu tirna lo sance br lo nu lo stela cu kalri binxo
** s/br/be '''ro''' doesn't mean "whole". Maybe '''pi ro'''.
* lu mi nelci lo nitce nu carvi li'u
** s/nitce/nicte
* ni'o ba za bo le girzu cu nergau le -elevator-? si'u la .kim.
** lafmi'i ?
* .i la .susan. ze'i se cfipu gi'e ku'i ba bo morji lo skinsa
** s/skinsa/skina ?
== Section 4.4 ==
* .i se ki'u bo sy .e vy bajra fa'a le riltu stuzi
** s/riltu/ritli/ ?
* .i pa pasru remna to ta'o ro le pasru cu xekri toi cu jgari lo plimatga'a cladu bacru lo cizra valsi
** gi'e cladu?
* ni'o sy zi pa pastu remna cu jgari re makfa dakfu noi ny cy pu za dunda ke'a sy
** zi?
* .i ku'i sy sezmuvgau se pi'o ro nilisutra be lo blupinxe
** s/nilisutra/nilsutra How many speeds do the blupinxe have?
* .i se ri'a bo le rembna cu cortu krixa gi'e farlu
** s/rembna/remna
* .i ca'o bo sy plipe lo diklo poi jibni gi'e na cnita vau le xanxe be ko'a
** s/xanxe/xance
* .i ba zi bo sy lifri lo nu lo temci flecu cu susti
** s/susti/denpa ?
* .i tu'e pa dakfu cu pagre re pina rango be sy
** pina?
* mi na kakne lo nu rivbi vau co lo nu simsa cortu li pe'u jmive ko sisti gasnu
** s/rivbi vau co/renvi ? s/li/.i
* lo ni cortu ba lo nu do rivbi cu mutce zenba lo ka duknu rinka
** s/duknu/dunku
* .i ku'i .u'u .uu la'a no drata te cuxna
** s/te/cu te
* lu .ie .i ko fanta lo nu mi rinka lo mosri rinka ve xrani li'u
** ???
* .i ji'a cy di'i troci lo nu celgunta le cutne be le rokci lo nu daspo le rinsa
** s/rinsa/risna ?
* .i ji'a sy zgana lo nu cy jai gai daspo so'o tabykrili
** s/gai/gau ?
== Section 4.5 ==
* .i ba za bo la ko'a co'a ganse
** s/la//
* .i ko'a te cusku lu lo voksa cu jai cansu do .i do se cmene zo .susan. li'u
** s/cansu/casnu (I guess '''ko'a''' no longer stands for the rock thing then?)
* .i sy ba lo mentu be li ji'i mu poi lamji balvi lo nu vy cliva cu sipna
** s/poi/be'o poi s/ba/ba za, ba zi
* .i xu do djuno lo du'u lo barda vofli crida cu pa ca'a fekcrida
** s/pa/pu ?
* lu mi go'i .i ti'a do curmi lo nu citka li'u
** s/ti'a/ti'e ? s/curmi/zifre ?
* lu .ui sai do djuno lo du'u mi nelci lo -pomegranite-? ta'i ma li'u
** s/ta'i/kei ta'i
* .i sy se jvinu lo ka no'e jinru cinmo cortu kei gi'e cusku
** s/jinru/junri/ ?
=Chapter 5=
== Section 5.1 ==
* .i la .rut. .ann. cusku lu la'a le sutra vreji pagbu cu spofu li'u
** s/.ann./.an.
* .u'u le sutra vreji cipra semtci ba ze'u gunka
** zo sem rafsi ma
* .i ry cusku lu le bruna be dy cu ze'u jilra dy se ki'u lo blupinxe se vlipa be dy
** s/se ki'u//
* .i ku'i le bruna cu djuno no da poi srana lo blupinxe
** s/poi srana//
* .i ku'i by pi viska lo se vlipa fi'o se snuti dy
** s/pi/pu ?
* .i mi terpa lo nu da'i le bruna cu troci lo nu sfasa dy kei ta'i lo nu canci simlu
** s/kei ta'i/fo/ ?
* .i la .kim. sanli gi'e cilte krosa'i
** s/cilte/clite
* .i la .uujin. cu jai dicra la .kim. gi'e cusku lu le cukta cu te facki li'u
** That would be "something is discovered about the book"? But that disagrees with your other uses of '''facki'''.
*.i ky se jvinu lo ka tera kei gi'e cusku lu bu'u ma li'u
** "Where was something discovered about the book"? If the question is about the location of the book, then I think '''zvati ma''' would be better, otherwise it looks like a tense for the previous sentence.
* .i le judri cu cpana le ti pelji
** s/cpana/se ciska fi
* ni'o ky catlu le pelji gi'e ku'i sy krici lo du'u ky na tcidu
** s/gi'e/.i <nowiki>je</nowiki>
* .i mi'o te cmene fi la'e di'u mu'i lo nu le cukta cu marji lo pelji be lo remna bongu joi lo xinmo be lo remna ciblu
** s/mi'o/mi'a/ ? s/joi/be'o joi
* lu gasnu lo purmo gi'e pilno lo makfa li'a li'u
** s/gasnu/zbasu, cupra
* lu je'e do cukta ma ma ma li'u .i la .kim. cusku lu lo makfa po lo fekcrida lo na se djuno lo fenki poi djica lo nu vlipa binxo li'u
** s/se djuno/te djuno
* mi'o so'e roi daspo ri .i ku'i ri ro roi xruti .i mi'o ji'a troci lo nu mipri se pinfu ri
** s/mi'o/mi'a s/mi'o ji'a/ji'a mi'a
* .i ku'i ri ro roi canci gi'e ba tolcanci bu'u lo jibni be lo vlipa djica remna
** s/bu'u//
* .i sy cusku lu .oi ru'e ji'a ti se cmene ma li'u ju'e lu la .maikl. li'u
** s/la/zo
* .i mu cusku lu .yyy. ki'e do .yy. mi na jimpe mutce la .lojban. li'u
** s/mu/my
* .i ba zi bo le se go'i cu nenri le karce gi'e klama le judri be le cukta
** Is '''le judri be le cukta''' a place or a label?
== Section 5.2 ==
* lu lo nu mi'o na viska lo simsa cu mukti lo nu ga'orgau le vorme gi'e pilno le janbe .i ku'i li'a sai no remna cu bu'u xabju li'u
** Added "da'i" after "lu". -Robin
*** Okay. It's still a bit strange that he says that after having violated the lock though. -xorxes
* Point. How about: lu .i ja mi'o pu kakne lo nu cadzu fa'a lo fatne .i da'i lo nu mi'o fatne cadzu cu rinka lo nu mi'o ro roi ni'a mo'i cadzu .i .oi se'i li'u
** Yes, that makes more sense.
* .i ji'a le kumfa cu vasru so'o tansi lo fagri
** s/tansi/tansi be/
* .i pi so'a roi marde saske cu nitcu le re moi javni po lo glare saske
** Something missing there. There appear to be two selbri. Is '''marde saske''' something like ethics? What does it have to do with thermodynamics?
* .i ba je fi'o spaji bo le girzu cu nergau lo no'e cizra kumfa
** s/nergau/nerkla
== Section 5.3 ==
* .i mi ba turni lo terdi ca'i le mi se selfu
** s/se//
* .i ku'i mi ca na nticu le corti pixra
** s/nticu/nitcu s/corti/cortu
* .i la .brai,an. ga'orgau le kanla gi'e za'a mtuce jundi pensi
** s/mtuce/mutce
* .i ca ku lo sluji cu rigni barda gi'e fe'e so'o roi pagra le skapi be by
** s/pagra/pagre
*.i ja'e bo by ni'a rivbi le nu tikpa kei gi'e darxi vy le xance lr betfu
** s/lr/le
* .i le ni le birka .e le tuple cu sutra pagre lo vacri cu banzu lo nu se sance lo siclu be lo cladu
** s/se sance lo siclu be/siclu
* lu li'a la .stefen. na pa mei lo diklo kalte poi djuno lo makfa li'u
** la setefen na se steci lo ka certu lo makfa kei lo diklo kalte
* .i la .brai,an. litki cusku lu mi pu djica lo nu simlu do kei po'o
** s/simlu/simsa
* .i se mu'i bo ro le kalte cu nergau le bargu ca lo nu le zdani co'a desku
** s/nergau/nerkla (cpanykla?)
== Section 5.4 ==
*.i ky cuxna lo traji jinbi bargu ne'i le lenku fagri kumfa
** s/jinbi/jibni
* .i le traji jinbi bargu cu na mintu le bargu poi le girzu pu za pagre
** s/jinbi/jibni
* .i la'a le blaci cpini cu pu zi gleki vofli vi'u le kumfa
** s/cpini/cipni
* .i le girzu so'i ganse lo ka vofli gi'e farlu .i ro le girzu na nelci
** s/so'i/so'i roi/?
* ni'o le girzu tolxruti lo kumfa poi nenri le dertu ku'o gi'e na te vorme lo bartu
** s/tolxruti/tolcliva
* .i lo pulji cu tolxruti pu zi lo nu le blupinxe cu mo'u bargau
** s/tolxruti/tolcliva s/pu zi/zi pu s/bargau/barkla
* .i le pulji cu fengu cusku lu mi'o klama be ti co traji lo ka sutra fo lo kakne be mi'o
** s/mi'o/mi'a
* .i ku'i mi'o pu zi kakpa ri le se daspo zdani
** s/mi'o/mi'a
*.i se ri'a ba mi tcetcetce xagji li'u
** s/ba/bo
== Section 5.5 ==
* .i ku'i .a bu prije ca'o? smaji
** s/prije ca'o/ca'o prije
* ni'o sy ca lo nu le girzu cu xruti le dinju cu gidva vy le ckana kumfa po vy
** s/gidva/klagi'a
* .i do pu ponse no drata xamgu te cuxna
** s/ponse/something else
* ca le ba'e cabycta mi ponse no drata te cuxna
** s/cabycta/cabycte/?
* kakne ju'o lo nu xlali pilno le djuno be lo blupinxe
** s/djuno/se djuno
* .i mi gleki lo nu do pacna .i mu'i la'e di'u jarco lo nu do vrude
** s/mu'i/mu'i bo
* .i lo nu kurji le bruna be do cu vrude je xendo
** s/xendo/te xendo
* .i mi nelci do mu 'i lo nu do vrude je xendo
** s/mu 'i/mu'i Is '''vrude''' for both actions and people?
* .i se mu'i re jgrai cu milxe cmila
** s/re jgrai/bo le re jgari
* .i sy mutce nelci le ny vy jgari
** s/ny/nu
* .i ji'a la'a to'e mu'i na lo nu vy cindji tu'a sy kei
** s/na/nai
* vy na djica lo nu cinse gasnu zi lo nu catra le bruna
** s/gasnu// s/zi/zi ba/
* .i ku'i .a bu prije ca'o? smaji
** s/prije ca'o/ca'o prije
* ni'o sy ca lo nu le girzu cu xruti le dinju cu gidva vy le ckana kumfa po vy
** s/gidva/klagi'a
* .i do pu ponse no drata xamgu te cuxna
** s/ponse/something else
* ca le ba'e cabycta mi ponse no drata te cuxna
** s/cabycta/cabycte/?
* kakne ju'o lo nu xlali pilno le djuno be lo blupinxe
** s/djuno/se djuno
* .i mi gleki lo nu do pacna .i mu'i la'e di'u jarco lo nu do vrude
** s/mu'i/mu'i bo
* .i lo nu kurji le bruna be do cu vrude je xendo
** s/xendo/te xendo
* .i mi nelci do mu 'i lo nu do vrude je xendo
** s/mu 'i/mu'i Is '''vrude''' for both actions and people?
* .i se mu'i re jgrai cu milxe cmila
** s/re jgrai/bo le re jgari
* .i sy mutce nelci le ny vy jgari
** s/ny/nu
* .i ji'a la'a to'e mu'i na lo nu vy cindji tu'a sy kei
** s/na/nai
* vy na djica lo nu cinse gasnu zi lo nu catra le bruna
** s/gasnu// s/zi/zi ba/
* ni'o vy ji'a cmoni gi'e danre zmadu ge jgari le tatru gi catke se pi'o le pinji
** s/ge/gi'e s/gi/gi'e
* .i ba zi bo vy jgari le creka gi'e spogau ti se pi'o pa sutra nu lacpu
** s/ti/fi ti/ s/se pi'o/fe/
*.i fi'o suka bo vy co'u cinba gi'e ku'i lacpu spogau le creka po sy
** s/suka/suksa s/spogau/spogau fi
* .i ku'i sy djica ji'a lo nu jgari le pinji
** '''ji'a''' probably goes somewhere else.
* .i sy gunka lo nu jundi bonxo kei lo nu jimpe le se gasnu be vy
** s/bonxo/binxo/?
*.i se mu'i bo sy lacpu jagri vy re birka le zargu
** s/jagri/jgari
* gi'e cusku lu .e'a sai mi djuno li'u gi'e za'u re'y lacpu vy
** s/re'y/re'u
* ni'o vy vreta ga'u sy gi'e ku'i pilno le birka lo nu rivbi lo nu vreta ba'e fe sy
** I think: '''vy pinta ga'u <nowiki>re'o</nowiki> sy gi'e ku'i pilno le birka lo nu rivbi lo nu vreta sy''' If '''vy vreta''', '''vy vreta ma'''.
* .i sy peisku lu ke'u lo blupinxe cu tsali .ui sai .i mi na ganse le junta be vy .i ku'i za'a vy ka'e ze'u vreta li'u
** Again s/vreta/pinta (But, given that she is a blupinxe too now, wouldn't she also barely feel his weight even if he was resting on her?)
* .i ku'i mi certu co gasnu lo nu lo drata lifri be mi cu gunma sepli ma'i le mi menli
** s/lifri/se lifri I don't understand what '''gunma''' does there.
* .i da'i lo nu mi ro roi pensi lo purci ke jursa lifri cu rinka lo nu mi gasnu
** s/lifri/se lifri
* .i mi gleki le du'u do nelci
** I'd s/du'u/nu
*.i vy di'a cinba sy se kai lo mleca be lo ka prami .e ku'i lo zmadu
** be lo ka cindji s/.e/be'o .e s/mleca/jdika s/zmadu/zenba
*.i sy cusku lu jdari zmadu li'u
** s/zmadu/zenba Perhaps she should also add an e'u or e'o or ko
* .i le se cmoni be sy zenba lo ka cladu gi'e tonga lo -high pitch-??
** '''lo galtu <nowiki>be lo ka tonga</nowiki>'''?
* lu .e'u nai do ba tacsa'e le tsiju li'u ju'e lu .ua nai so'i remna pu renvi lo nu tunlo le tsiju be mi
** s/tacsa'e/tacysa'e (this appears several more times) apparently s/tsiju/sovda
*.i se ri'a bo le kanla badgai po sy mulno kalri binxo
** s/po/po'e I would prefer something like '''le kalgai be sy''' though.
* .i vy troci so'i tadji gi'e pilno lo frati be sy lo nu cuxna la'e di'e
** s/frati/se frati
* .i ku'i vy na sisti jo nai masno binxo
** s/jo nai/ja
* lu .y. na go'i li'u .i se ki'u bo vy ranji
** s/ranji/stali (or ra'irgau, or nalsti)
* .i ku'i vy punji le jipno be pa degji ne'i le ganxo be sy be'o
** s/ne'i/le nenri be
* noi se sakli ri'a tu'a lo tsiju .e lo vibna ke cinse litka
** s/tsiju/sovda ? s/litka/litki
* lu mi na birti lo du'u mi pu bredi le lifri li'u
** s/lifri/se lifri
* lu mi joi do na pu cinse .i ma krinu lo nu do krici li'u
** s/mi joi do/mi'o? (I have absolutely no idea how the place structure of '''cinse''' works, so I don't really know if '''mi'o cinse''' says what you want or not.)
* .i ji'a mi pu mtuce djica lo nu do lifri lo xamgu se manci
** s/mtuce/mutce
* .i ma krinu lo nu do terpa le lifri
** s/lifri/se lifri
* .i vy prami je jdari jgari sy gi'e cusku lu do pu terpa lo nu mi jimpe lo dukse po do
** s/po//
* .i sa'e do pu terpa lo nu lo ni mi jimpe do cu zmadu lo ni do jimpe mi
** s/jimpe/jimpe fi
* .i mi jimpe lo sinvi be do
** s/sinvi/sivni
* .i nu'e sai mi pu zgana do
** s/nu'e sai/nu'e sai do'o (COIs should be moved to UI.)
* .i vy cusku lu xu do pu nelci le re moi nu ralcinrfa li'u
** s/ralcinrfa/ralcinfra
* .i mi djica lo nu ba ku mi joi do sidju mi joi do lo nu tolcortu li'u
** s/mi joi do/mi'o
* .i sy catlu le flirabe vy gi'e cisma gi'e cusku
** s/flirabe/flira be
=Chapter 6=
== Section 6.1 ==
* .i je'u sai la .raitcel. ca lo nu viska vy joi sy simxu ke xance jgari cu cladu cusku
** s/viska/viska lo nu
*.i ky citka gi'e tcidu le nuzba se papri
** s/nuzba se papri/karni
* .i .ui nai sai le kunfa cu xamgu se gusni gi'e mutce gubni
** s/kunfa/kumfa
* ni'o sy ba lo nu ti mo'u cmila cu cusku
** s/ti/sy ?
* .i ti'a sy la .raitcel. cusku lu go'i cai li'u .i ca bo ky go'i
** Maybe '''go'i ra'o''', so it doesn't mean '''i ca bo ky ti'a sy cusku lu go'i cai li'u'''.
*.i ry zutse ca le mintu jubme
** s/ca/bu'u
* lu .i ji'a le bruna be do citno simlu li'u .i vy co'u cisma gi'e cusku lu la .brai,an. cu djica lo nu citno binxo .i by pu pleji le nu jmive li'u
** i ku'i le panzi be la braian be'o noi la susan pu celgunta cu nanca ma
* lu .u'i mi pu cindji catlu so'i nanmu .e so'o ninmu .i na sidju li'u ju'e lu .u'i da poi ponse lo pelxu je blabi kerfa .e lo xekri palku li'u ju'e lu go'i li'u
** Not sure if technically this '''go'i''' repeats '''na sidju''' or David's unstated '''co'e'''.
* .i ma mukti lo nu do na cpedu lo nu senvi penmi
** s/senvi/sivni ?
* .i le dacti cu ve pluta fo lo pluja ma'i lo mudr grana poi se sraku ve pixra lo cizra flira
** s/mudr/mudri
* ni'o le jmive poi se vitke le menli be sy cu cusku lo na'e bangu panra be lu
** s/se vitke/vitke ?
* .i ji'a sai le jmive cu cusku ro lo blupinxe ne'i le dinju
** s/cusku/cusku fi s/ne'i/pe ne'i
* .i sy na pu viska lo nu da dukse cy lo ka sutra
** s/dukse/zmadu ?
*.i ba za bo le ciblu muvdu se ri'a lo cnino ?to? xunre toi pixra
** s/muvdu/cu muvdu
* ju'r lu .u'i li'a sai do na troci li lo blupinxe cu xamgu renvi lo vindu
** s/ju'r/ju'e s/li/.i
* .i mi no roi lo nu xalka bilma binxo cu snada ba lo nu mi blupinxe binxo
** s/roi/roi ku
* .i lo bredi be la nicte cadzu .y. .i ki'e .djen. to'i cy tunlo pi so'i le jisra toi .i lo bredi
** s/bredi/bradi
* .i mi'a te cmene lo simsa lu lo na'e se tcica gqnse li'u
** s/gqnse/ganse
* .i ku'i mu djuno lo du'u lo nu la'e di'u ze'u ranji cu na cumki
** s/mu/mi
*.uo mi pa kucli lo su'u xu kau lo pu zi temci cu fadni
** s/pa/pu
== Section 6.2 ==
*.i ku'i no da djuno le se sinxa
** There is a difference between '''djuno le se sinxa''' and '''djuno lo du'u sinxa ma kau'''. For example, let's say that everyone knows that the sky is blue, '''ro da djuno lo du'u le tsani cu blanu''', and let's say that ko'a symbolizes that the sky is ble, '''ko'a sinxa lo du'u le tsani cu blanu'''. Let's also suppose that nobody knows that ko'a symbolizes that the sky is blue '''no da djuno lo du'u ko'a sinxa lo du'u le tsani cu blanu'''. Then: '''no da djuno lo du'u ko'a sinxa ma kau''' is true, nobody knows what ko'a symbolizes. '''no da djuno le se sinxa''' is false, they all know that which is symbolized by ko'a (i.e. that the sky is blue).
* .i ca bo la .kim. siska lo vrici po le dacti finti
** s/siska/sisku
* ni'o la .susan. na se frili lo nu sidju le re se zukte
** '''sidju le re zukte''' or '''sidju fi le re se zukte''' or '''sidju le re zukte le re se zukte'''.
* .i ba'o bo sy vitke le citka kumfa
** Does '''i ba'o bo''' work like '''i ba bo''' or like '''i ri'a bo'''?
* .i ba zi bo sy tirna lu doi .gus. do cliva
** '''ko cliva'''?
* .i ri milxe se cfipu tu'a lo na'a rectu cidja
** s/na'a/na'e
* ni'o sy fe'e co'a klama le cidja te sorcu
** Is there a difference here between '''fe'e co'a''' and '''co'a''', given the mechanics of '''klama'''? Doesn't the start in place and in time always coincide?
* .u'u mi na curmi lo nu do nergau
** s/nergau/nerkla
* .i sy ze'a pencu la .gus. gi'e pensi le cizra se tarti be la .djen.
** s/pencu/satre ?
* ni'o ba za bo la .dalton. klama le kumfa fi'o se bevri lo papri
** I assume la dalton is the one carrying the page? If so, why not s/fi'o se/gi'e
* lu lio sai xu do djica lo nu lei kalte cu jmaji li'u
** s/lio/?
* ca lo nu gy gasnu co preja lei papri pa jubme
** s/gasnu co preja/pejgau
* .i sinxa pa daspo ke ralju fekcria
** s/fekcria/fekcrida
* ni'o ze'i bo lo prenu cu smaji je pensi
** s/bo/ku ?
* lu lo nu le vorme cu mulno binxo cu rinka ma li'u
** binxo ma?
* .i cy cusku lu .i ji'a li'a sai mi'a bliga lo nu fanta .i ki'e sai .dalton.
** s/mi'a/mi'o ?
* .i le tirnu vreji cu jarco lo ka
** s/tirnu/turni ?
* le nanmu cu ze'e pu jmive co'i lo nanca be li ji'i vo ci
** Lived from ever as a point event lasting 43 years???
* .i ku'i le vreji cu co'a zasti de'i le purllamji nanca
** s/de'i/ca s/purllamji/purlamji (I think '''prulamji''' scores less, but I tend to prefer pur- too.)
*.i doi kalte ko xruti ti'u li no pi'e su'i re no
** su'i?
* .i cy cusku lu doi sy ko menli jarco le flira be le nanmu mi li'u .i sy gasnu
** You use '''gasnu''' a lot to translate English "do". I think '''zukte''' is the correct translation in most such cases. '''gasnu''' corresponds to English "make" in the sense of making someone or something else do something. The x1 of gasnu is not (normally) the actor of the x2 of gasnu. The x1 of zukte is the actor of the x2 of zukte. In this case, for example: '''sy zukte lo nu sy menli jarco le flira be le nanmu''', and not '''sy gasnu lo nu sy menli jarco le flira be le nanmu'''. The latter is not completely wrong, just weird: "Susan made herself show ...". '''gasnu''' never corresponds to English "do", no matter what the keyword says.
* .i mi na djuno le mukti be lo nu le go'i zvati le mergu'e
** zvati/cu zvati
* .i to'oe mu'i bo sy cusku lu doi cy xu le zi tatru be dy cizra do li'u
** s/to'oe/to'e s/tatru/se tarti (u'isai) s/cizra/cu cizra
== Section 6.3 ==
* lu le lardai cu cocku lo makfa nejni mi .i .oi sai li'u
** s/cocku/cokcu
* .i le se gasne cu mutce to'e pluja ro le kalte
** s/gasne/ganse s/pluja/pluka ?
* .i mi krici lo du'u le se go'i rinka lo nu le makfa na ka'e zgana mi'o
** s/rinka/cu rinka
* .i ku'i simsa lo nu senvi
** s/senvi/senva
* .i sa'e lo flira cu simlu lo ka na mutce simsa lo remna .i le manku cu sidju? la'e di'u
** Maybe something like '''lo nu manku cu filri'a la'e di'u'''.
*.i mu'i tu'a lo flira le kalte zenba lo ka se lifri da poi simsa lo nu senvi
** s/zenba/cu zenba s/se lifri/lifri s/senvi/senva
* .i le kalte cu cadzu ne'i le sarlu gi'e zgana ro da gi'e ku'i jimpe na da
** s/na/no
* .i le kalte ba lo nu cliva le pakna cu ba morji so'i cizra je se terpa flira
** s/pakna/panka
* ni'o ze'a ku le dargu te'e lo flira cu ganra gi'e ku'i jdika lo ka ganra kei fa'a le midju
** s/ze'a/ve'a ?
* .i vi le midju le dargu cu banzu lo nu pa po'o mei remna ka'e mlana simxu cadzu
** s/vi/bu'u mlana simxu?
* ni'o ba za bo le kalte cu klama le midju be le lardai
** s/klama/tolcliva ? (They were klamaing there all the time.)
* .i da'a pa le kalte cu viska lo kamju be lo xrula fi'o te clani lo menli be li pa pi ji'i mu
** s/menli/minli Not sure how '''fi'o te clani''' works there.
* .i ku'i sy viska lo kamju be lo sedbo'u be so'i ge danlu gi remna
** s/ge/gu'e
* ni'o le nanmu po'u le lardai finti cu glibau cusku lu xamgu vanci
* .i do cinmo ma doi xendo nanmu li'u
** s/nanmu/prenu ?
* .i le nanmu gi'e cusku lu ro le makfa be do cu se ponse mi
** s/gi'e/cu
* .i do ca'o klama lo nu daspo
** s/ca'o klama lo nu/ba se
*.i ku'i la .axmed. klama le jibni gi'e pu zi jgari le cladakxa'i
** s/cladakxa'i/cladakyxa'i
* .i ku'i sy pu jgari re barda je kruvi dakxa'i gi'e ca pilno ri
** s/dakxa'i/dakyxa'i
* .i re le tu'urbirka cu se katna le dakfu li re
** s/li re/re da
* .i le nu sy gunta cu jursa mu
** s/mu/my
* .i xrani ge nu'i? fy gy fo so'o se katna gi .a bu fo so'u se katna .e so'u jelca
** '''nu'i ge''', or just '''ge'''.
== Section 6.4 ==
* .i ku'i li'a .a bu troci lo nu gidva le gerku lo darno be le xunre fekcrida
** s/gidva/klagi'a
* .i zu'u le xunre fekcrida cu jei muvgau le xadni pagbu kei be fa li pi so'o
** s/cu/zo'u s/be// or something.
* .i ku'i le birka mu'a be le xunre cu canci vi le cutne gi'e tolcanci vi le flira be ky
** s/vi//
* .i ro nu muvdu po ky cu melbi gi'e traji lo ka cmalu kei fo lo cumki
** s/ro nu muvdu po ky/ro nu ky muvdu I guess the other is possible too, but more ambiguous. Is it '''ro nu ky muvdu''', '''ro nu muvdu ky''', '''ro nu muvdi fi ky''', '''ro nu muvdu fo ky''', all of them, something else?
* ni'o ky ca'o gunta le xunre .i ky jgari re dakfu gi'e ku'i pu'o darxi le xunre .i ku'i .ui le xunre pu'o darxi ky
** ui?
* .i pa le balre cu fadni fi lo dakxa'i
** s/dakxa'i/dakyxa'i
* .i se ri'a bo le re moi balre cu se pilxau fi lo nu badgai le birka
** s/se pilxau/plixau ?
* ni'o sy zgana le du'ule xirma mleca ky .e le xunre lo ka sutra
** s/mleca/cu mleca
* .i ku'i le xunre cu pilno le xirma lo nu badgau le nei? ky
** s/le nei/vo'a
* .i se ri'a bo ky darxi le xunre se ri'a lo nu tcetce clad:u
** s/clad:u/cladu
* .i ku'i so'u balre po'e le xunre cu se katne
** s/po'e/be ? s/katne/katna
* .i simlu lo nu le xadni be le xirma cu ca'o darno fulta
** '''le xadni be le xirma cu simlu lo ka ca'o to'o fulta'''?
* .i le xunre cu krixa pa'a lo sance be pa balre cu guska pa drata balre gi'e di'a gunta
** '''lo sance be lo nu pa balre cu guska pa drata balre kei''' I would say '''lo balre cu guska lo balre''', "blade scraping blade", since I don't see why it would be important that exactly one blade scrapes exactly one other blade.
* ni'o ba zi bo le xunra cu darxi le gerku so'i balre
** s/xunra/xunre
* .i se mu'i bo ky darxi le na'e jundi be ky xunre le trixa be le stedu
** s/trixa/trixe
* .i ba zi bo ky surja se ri'a bo le nu ky ze'u vamtu
** surja?
* .i sy mutce spaji
** s/spaji/se spaji
* .i .a bu ba nu'i lo snidu be li me'i pa se pi'o na lo tutci cusku lu
** s/nu'i/za (or, at any rate, not what you have) s/na/nai ? s/cusku/cu cusku
* .i do.a bu .yyy. si sy ko bevri ky
** s/do/doi
* .i ku'i no kalte cu xrani le spoja
** s/xrani le/se xrani le nu
* .i cy cusku lu le makfa cu sidju le spoja li'u
** s/spoja/nu spoja ?
* ni'o ba nu'i lo cacra be li pa pi mu nu'u le pulji jatna
* cu muce tatpi catlu le xrani panka
** I don't think that's grammatical.
* .i le jatna co'a krici lo du'u lo makfa cu srana kei mu'i
* lo nu ro da po le spoja cu cizra
** s/spoja/nu spoja ?
== Section 6.5? 6.4? ==
* .i ku'i no le drata cu krici lo du'u le frati be dy cu cizra
** s/frati/se frati
* gi'e cpedu lo nu ro da vitke le citka kumfa kei se ka'i le .djen.
** s/le/la (i la djen krati ma?)
* ni'o ba zi bo ro prenu poi nenri le dinju cu nenri le citke kumfa
** s/citke/citka
* .i ku'i dy nenri le jukpa kumfa
** yyy... xu dy na prenu i ja dy nenri ge le citka kumfa gi le jukpa kumfa i ja le jukpa kumfa na nenri le dinju
* ni'o vy ze'i se spaji catlu sy fi'o se simla lo ka krici
** s/simla/simlu
* .i ba zi bo sy smaji cmila gi'e cusku lu dy ba'e na fekcrida
** s/sy/vy ?
* .i za'a no da djuno le krinu be le cpedu
** s/cpedu/se cpedu ? (although you probably mean '''no da dkuno lo du'u ma kau krinu le nu cpedu''').
* .i sy mutce surla binxo gi'e sanga to bai la .gliban. toi le nu jbena kei sanga
** s/bai/bau
* .i dy cusku lu se cau la .rut.an. noi cikre ro tucti po mi'o kei le dinju
* pu zu da'i farlu
** s/tucti/tutci s/kei/ku'o
* .i se ki'u bo zbasa le titnanba
** s/zbasa/zbasu
* .i do .rut.an. ko gasnu lo nu ti se katna
** s/do/doi
* .i sy krici le du'u ry jibni lo klaku ca lo nu katna gasnu
** s/jibni lo klaku/na ru'e klaku
* .o ba zi bo ro prenu poi na du ry cu zanru je gleki se sance
** s/.o/.i
=Chapter 7=
== Section 7.1 ==
* .i pu nu'i le nu lardai spoja kei lo djedi be li ci
** I guess you meant to use CLL's odd construction: '''.i nu'i pu le nu lardai spoja kei la'u lo djedi be li ci nu'u ...''' Notice that CLL managed to include two errors in example 25.1: '''lu'a''' instead of '''la'u''' and '''zu'a nu'i''' instead of '''nu'i zu'a'''. You can't leave '''la'u''' out because '''pu''' will only take care of one sumti, the second one would be untagged and fill a normal selbri place. Also, in your case, '''nu'u''' is not elidable. I would say: '''pu le nu lardai spoja kei za lo djedi be li ci''' where '''pu''' tags the reference point and '''za''' the displacement magnitude.
* .i ba lo nu ze'a casnu kei la .raitcel. .e la .stefen. cu cliva mu'i lo nu me lu sivni rapcreze'a li'u
** I think you may want '''fu'e pe'a sivni rapcreze'a fu'o'''. '''me lu sivni rapcreze'a li'u''' means "x1 is/are the words/phrase '''sivni rapcreze'a'''". It's hard to understand how being those words could motivate much of anything.
* .i ba bo sy cusku lu so'o roi ro jeftu tu gasnu lo simsa
** I'd s/gasnu/zukte or tarti
* .i mi mutce kucli ma kau poi tu gasnu sa'e li'u
** '''kucli lo du'u tu zukte ma kau sa'e'''
* .i do kakne lo nu viska le se gasnu
** s/gasnu/zukte
* .i se ri'a bo la'a sai cy ro roi sanji lo nu se zgana
** I would approve of that grammar change. :)
* ro da po fi'o cmima mi cu viska
** Everyone specifically associated with me as member?
* .i ba zi bo sy nergau le snura kumfa
** s/nergau/nerkla
* .i ry so'o roi darxi cy
** Yes.
* .i sy na jimpe le krinu be le se gasnu be ry joi cy
** '''sy na jimpe le krinu''' She probably knows what the reason is, but doesn't understand it. '''sy na jimpe lo du'u ma kau krinu''' She doesn't understand what the reason is.
* .i za'a simsa lo nu cladu krixa to le kacma na benji lo sance toi
** s/simsa lo nu/simlu lo ka/ ?
* .i cy ze'i zenba nu'i ge lo ka clani kei so'o no centre gi lo ka tsali kei lo tcetce
** '''so'o no centre''' = '''so'o dectre''' ? Even better: '''lo dectre be li so'o'''.
* .i se ri'a bo cy na mutce jvinu panra lo remna
** '''na mutce simlu lo ka remna'''?
* .i sy krici lo du'u lo simsa cu mukti lo ranmi be lo -werewolf-?
** labnyre'a ?
* .i se mu'i bo cy zutse le jamfu trixe gi'e xendo pensu le stedu be ry ca'o lo nu ry troci lo nu vasxu
** s/pensu/pencu (or satre?)
* ni'o cy noi se jgalu se xadni cu jgari se pi'o pa xance le birka be ry ji'a
** s/se pi'o/fi '''le birka be ry ji'a'''? Whose else is the arm?
* .i gau cy ry gunro
** s/cy/cy boi or maybe change the order: '''ry gau cy gunro'''
* se ri'a lo nu le loldi cu crane ry gi'e? ry se sarji le cidni .e le xance
** No, '''gi'e''' can only connect bridi-tails. '''se ri'a lo nu ge le loldi cu crane ry gi ry se sarji le cidni joi le xance'''
* .i ku'i le pinji be cy zmadu so'a remna lo ka barda
** s/zmadu/cu zmadu Bigger than most humans or than most humans' ?
* .i se mu'i bo cy smaji ca'o le nu ry binxo co slabu le nu tcena
** s/slabu/se slabu
* ni'o sy cindji binxo ca le nu ry mo'u jgari fo le galxe gi'e? cy co'a gletu ry
** ge ... gi ... or '''gi'e co'a se gletu cy'''
* .i sy krici le du'u ry ca ralcinfra .i cy mutce cisma gi'e ba zi ji'a ralcinfra
** s/ji'a/si'a ?

type 4 fu'ivla

2026-01-13T18:16:42Z

Bairyn: jmina lo krefu te basnypau

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 of the 5 CLL conditions. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a '''consonant/vowel cluster''' that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th (+1 if the rafsi isn't the CVC variant) letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''initial'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''initial'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction), or 2) '''starts with a vowel''' (‘.v’) that necessarily morphologically separates it from anything preceding it, or 3) including, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of '''the 4 normal fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv)''', either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state (one that leaves no possibility of a valid rafsi decomposition, by following the reductions listed in the table), according to the table, or 4) ending in 1 of the 4 '''fu'ivla tail form'''s (c, '''cv''', cc, ccvcc) (only ‘cv’ ends in ‘v’, so only it is conseqential for fu'ivla determination), if hyphenization is ignored. (For cases #3 and #4, the table includes the slinku'i test (condition #3 in CLL 4.7).)

<code><pre>
v
c
(vv)
vc *
vcv *
vcc *
vccv
(vccc)
vcvv -> v
vcvc
(vccvv)
vccvc
(vcvcv)
vcvcc
vccvcv ->
vccvcc *
vccvccv
vccvccc -> vcc
vccvccvv -> v
vccvccvc
vcvccv ->
vcvccc -> vccvcc
cv -> vcv
cc
vccvccvcv ->
vccvccvcc -> cc
ccv -> vccvccv
ccc -> vccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/fuhivla-forms (Table source and examples.)]

type 4 fu'ivla

2026-01-13T18:04:27Z

Bairyn: Comprehensive form: highlight important part.

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 of the 5 CLL conditions. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a consonant/vowel cluster that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th (+1 if the rafsi isn't the CVC variant) letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''initial'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''initial'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction), or 2) starts with a vowel (‘.v’) that necessarily morphologically separates it from anything preceding it, or 3) including, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of '''the 4 normal fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv)''', either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state (one that leaves no possibility of a valid rafsi decomposition, by following the reductions listed in the table), according to the table, or 4) ending in 1 of the 4 fu'ivla tail forms (c, cv, cc, ccvcc) (only ‘cv’ ends in ‘v’, so only it is conseqential for fu'ivla determination), if hyphenization is ignored. (For cases #3 and #4, the table includes the slinku'i test (condition #3 in CLL 4.7).)

<code><pre>
v
c
(vv)
vc *
vcv *
vcc *
vccv
(vccc)
vcvv -> v
vcvc
(vccvv)
vccvc
(vcvcv)
vcvcc
vccvcv ->
vccvcc *
vccvccv
vccvccc -> vcc
vccvccvv -> v
vccvccvc
vcvccv ->
vcvccc -> vccvcc
cv -> vcv
cc
vccvccvcv ->
vccvccvcc -> cc
ccv -> vccvccv
ccc -> vccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/fuhivla-forms (Table source and examples.)]

Lojbanic Software

2025-05-10T21:01:50Z

Bairyn:

__NOTOC__
Runs on: [[File:828.sip|link=]] - Android, [[File:804.sip|link=]] - iPhone, [[File:831.sip|link=]] - Linux, [[File:830.sip|link=]] - Mac, [[File:829.sip|link=]] - Windows, [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] - in browser or universally.
== Learning Lojban ==
=== Sounds of Lojban ===
*[http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf A tiny application] by [[Matt Arnold]] showing how Lojbanic letters sound
=== Flashcard Programs ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] Memrise - [http://memrise.com/ Memrise] (main page). [[MemriseConventions]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [[File:804.sip|link=]] [http://ichi2.net/anki/index.html Anki] is a free and open source program for "spaced repetition", an effective learning technique. It has a built in system for sharing "decks" where you can get Lojban word lists for training: File / Download / Shared Deck, search for "lojban". If this fails for some reason, you can also download and open the deck manually:
** from https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/Lojban
** or from this wiki: [[gismu-frequency.anki|for lo gismu (core verbs]], [[Lojban - cmavo.anki|for lo cmavo (particles)]]), [[lojban-namcu-cmavo.anki|for basic numbers]]. Anki also has a [https://ankiweb.net/ web-interface] that can be synchronized with a local deck.
*[http://quizlet.com/ Quizlet], an online flashcard app. Register and join the Lojban group; downloadable from Quizard on iPod/iPhone and from Kaka Flashcards on Android devices.

== Dictionaries ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/lojban/ Lai sutysisku] and [[La Muplis]]

*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ vlasisku] is an easy-to-use online Lojban <-> English dictionary. It is a convenient way to browse and search the definitions from the jbovlaste database.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] The official Lojban live dictionary project [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/ jbovlaste] contains complete or near-complete dictionaries for Russian, Spanish, Esperanto, and English, and the Lojban-in-Lojban dictionary is progressing rapidly.
:*As provisional measures against a bug of jbovlaste, Kepeken created [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/xKynF3TbDL8/b4KnLJjYCQAJ a bookmarklet for taking back non-ASCII search results on jbovlaste].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] A [[GoldenDict]] distribution for Lojban has numerous dictionaries suitable for everyone. The best offline choice.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://fricukt.tiddlyspot.com/ fricukt] supports any operating system where Chrome, Firefox, Opera or Safari browser can run on. The list of supported devices includes iPads, most Android devices and Chromebooks. Download the app (which is in fact just a sophisticated web-page) using corresponding link there or use it online. Touchscreen-friendly. Also contains some useful tables of cmavo etc.
*[[File:828.sip|link=]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary lojban dictionary] [https://apkpure.com/lojban-dictionary/iocikun.juj.lojban.dictionary (backup)] | An android app by Yoshikuni Jujo for quick word lookup.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/stardict.html lojban dictionaries in Stardict format] created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Several languages are available. View them with [http://goldendict.org/ GoldenDict], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/taptionary/id590381520?mt=8 Taptionary], [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dictionary-universal/id312088272?mt=8 Dictionary Universal] and so on.
*[http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/vlaste.html lojban dictionary for Kindle] in mobi format created from [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml.html xml dumps of jbovlaste]. Mainly in Japanese.
* [http://iuk.hateblo.jp/entry/2016/12/18/010000 ZpDIC for ponjo jbopre] (explained in Japanese). Lojban dictionary for ZpDIC.

== Keyboards ==
* [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.inputmethod.latin&hl=en Google's Gboard keyboard for Android] has Lojban added to its list of available keyboards. Install it and check your "Language & input" settings in order to download the language pack.
** [[File:828.sip]] [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.klye.ime.latin Multiling Keyboard] Multiling keyboard is an extremely customizable multilingual keyboard for Android which features a lojban plugin for text prediction. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=klye.plugin.lj|Lojban Plugin]
*[[Lojban keyboard for Mac|A Lojbanic Dvorak Keyboard Layout]] (with ‘ and h swapped) for Macbook Pro

== Glossers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Glosser] as a part of [[la ilmentufa]] project

== Lujvo analysers ==
:* [http://jwodder.freeshell.org/lojban/jvozba.cgi?lujvo= jvozba] created by kamymecraijun
:* [https://sozysozbot.github.io/sozysozbot_jvozba/sozysozbot_jvozba.html jvozba] Implementation of jvozba in JavaScript; created by sozysozbot

== Syntactic Parsers ==
=== Based on the official grammar ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html ilmentufa (official grammar)] - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser using [http://mhagiwara.github.io/camxes.js/ Masato Hagiwara's camxes.js].
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] The [[Official Parser|Official Parser]]
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [https://github.com/baban/genturfahi la baban's Frontend of Official Parser]
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] (Java) [[camxes|camxes]]
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/jboski www.lojban.org/jboski] - A web-based version of of [[Richard Curnow|Richard Curnow]]'s [[jbofihe|jbofihe]]; acts as a Lojban to English translator. Made by [[Raphal Poss|Raphal Poss]].
* [[OpenCog's parser]]

=== Based on experimental grammars ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [[zantufa]]: "zabna" parsers based on experimental grammars with clear versioning (suitable for use of [[jo'au]]), with many variations for various existing Lojban texts conforming to a previous official grammar (with [[BPFK Section: Ban on consonant-glide-vowel strings|CgV]]) like ''[[la .teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/maltufa-1.1.html maltufa]), as well as those conforming to unofficial grammars like ''[[la .teris. ku noi tigra cu stuvi'e lo barda tcadu]]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1.html zantufa]), ''[http://selpahi.de/oz.html lo se mànci te màkfa pe la .oz.]'' (suitable parser variation: [[maftufa]]), ''[http://danmo-rozgu.github.io/kacatraloverba.html ka càtra lo vèrba]'' (suitable parser variation: [http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.1-cekitaujoibu.html zantufa cekitaujoibus]), etc.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGerna iocixes (dead link)]: Created by la.iocikun. based on [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/zasni+gerna zasni gerna] with [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/MEX+grammar+proposal MEX grammar proposal] of la xorxes. ([https://skami2.iocikun.jp/lojban/zasniGernaPeg zasni gerna peg (dead link)])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa (experimental grammar)]: [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser modified by some people with plenty of experimental propositions. ([http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg])
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (JavaScript) [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm Another frontend of ilmentufa]: Created by la.uilym. based on [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html ilmentufa]. It is not necessarily based on the latest version of [http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.js.peg ilmentufa's peg].

== Semantic Parsers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [[la tersmu]] by Martin Bays. It translates lojban text to a predicate logic.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cakyrespa la cakyrespa] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Run turtle like LOGO with lojban.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] (Haskell) [https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lojysamban la lojysamban] by Yoshikuni Jujo. Prolog with lojban.

== Word lists ==
* [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/lojban-ispell-hashfile.html ispell data files] - Data files to allow Lojban spell checking with ispell
* [http://www.tomeraider.com Tomeraider] files containing the [[gismu|gismu]] list (English and Lojban ordering), the [[cmavo|cmavo]] list ([[cmavo|cmavo]] and [[selma'o|selma'o]] ordering), the [[rafsi|rafsi]] list and the [[BNF|BNF]] grammar, for [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.tr.zip PC] and [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.pdb.zip Palm Pilot]
* [[A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output|A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output]] by [[Jordan DeLong|Jordan DeLong]]
* [https://skami.iocikun.jp/lojban/valsi_tables.html|gismu list and cmavo list in each language available on the jbovlaste including experimental words and cmavo clusters] created by Yoshikuni Jujo from the jbovlaste database.
* [http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/dumps/ PDFs and viewable in browser XML latest versions of dictionaries]

== Games ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/ Colossal Cave]. First, the text of this game was translated by [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]] in 1991. [[User:Robin Lee Powell|Robin Lee Powell]] has heroically translated that translation into a working game - see [[Colossal Cave|Colossal Cave]] for that, and also for the Inform Localisation files needed to create your own Lojbanic IF.
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.colourbind.com/ Colour Bind] is a physics platform-puzzler set in an abstract world where gravity is determined not by mass, but by colour. It features a full Lojban translation by Lindar. The game is available on [http://store.steampowered.com/app/208710/ Steam].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.minecraft.net/ Minecraft] is a creative exploration game where you pick and place blocks to build worlds. A large group of contributors have created a community translation of Minecraft, which is included in Minecraft 1.9+. Unfortunately, it needs further translation on [http://crowdin.net/project/minecraft Minecraft's public translation website] in order for it to be complete.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.voxelands.com/ Voxelands] is yet another creative exploration game and comes with an official translation, although it might not be perfect yet. Everyone is welcome to improve it on [https://www.transifex.com/voxelands/voxelands/language/jbo/].
* [[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/]] [[File:828.sip|link=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalemthecoven]] [http://blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/ Town of Salem] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash_Player#Desktop_platforms Flash]) is an online version of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) Mafia] party game; itself is only available in English and in Turkish. However, private party groups can be formed in order to communicate in the language players have agreed upon. [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blankmediagames.townofsalem The Android version] is currently only available for tablets. Town of Salem related stuff is being translated in [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mlbf9nHkG5TtEZs1tl5aRVQoukvnD8CXAImwraFxxq4/edit?usp=sharing this public Google Spreadsheet] and occasionally check out [https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/search/?query=mafia the Lojban Facebook group] for any proposed private games.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://neverball.org/ Neverball] is a platformer ball game. (Currently pending a release after the translation merge. It can built from git source in the meantime.)

== Editing ==
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] A [http://mbays.freeshell.org/lojban.vim vim filetype plugin] for convenient word-list lookup, auto-lujvoification, and other useful things.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LojbanMode Lojban-mode] syntax highlighting and other support code for emacs
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [http://gitorious.org/jbotci jbofacki] [https://archive.softwareheritage.org/browse/origin/directory/?origin_url=https://gitorious.org/jbotci/jbotci.git (backup)] is a jbofihe/camxes CLI shell with Tab-completion of valsi and rafsi, colorized word lookups by literal name or string, etc. Intended for increased fun in exploring the construction of Lojban texts/sentences; also useful as a aid to memory (mi'e la kampu). Requires Python 2.5+, and currently also [http://github.com/dag/makfa-cli makfa-cli] for generation + update of dictionary data.

== Machine translation ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://lojban.lilyx.net/zmifanva/ zmifanva] created by [http://masatohagiwara.net/ Masato Hagiwara], Lojban ↔ English Machine Translation Engine based on phrase-based statistical machine translation.
** [https://github.com/youxkei/lojbo-tuhitsku lojbo-tuhitsku] created by youxkei. It obtains tweets, translates them into Lojban and tweets them. It calls Microsoft Translator for translation from Japanese to English, and zmifanva for English to Lojban.

== Other ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=014107847567658722055%3A3enx_7t3upo Google custom search engine for Lojban resources]
* [[morphology: analysis programs comparison|Morphology analysis programs comparison]]
Other software can be seen on the [[Talk:Lojbanic Software|talk page]].

[[Category:vlaste saske]]

'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste

2025-04-30T00:42:47Z

Bairyn: (Fix swap of ‘'e’ and ‘'e'i’ in my notes.)

* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:
** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the main bridi, rather than the current bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.
** Comments?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
**** Another issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.
**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.
**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.
**** I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the [[CLL|Refgramm]] allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of '''vo'a''', and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop '''vo'a''' from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.
**** PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of '''vo'a'''.
**** However...
**** See [[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]].
*** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
**** I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''.
***** [[adam|adam:]]
****** But '''vo'a''' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that '''sevzi''' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]].
Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.

{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}
*xod:
** Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.
** Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', where there is ambiguity (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.
** Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?
*****xod:
******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?
*******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list and Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.
*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.
***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku|kujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)
****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
***** Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of all instances of '''vo'a''' were in fact long-distance - not just of the instances of '''vo'a''' within embedded structures. People actually avoided using '''vo'a''' when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and sought it out when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you.
*[[Adam|Adam:]]
** The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance '''vo'a'''. I'll now try to use it that way consistently.
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**It's no wonder that '''vo'a''' usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.
** IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted '''vo'a'''.
**The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted '''vo'a''' has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as '''vo'a xi ro''', i.e. long-distance to main bridi.
**Yes of course subscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:
*** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;
*** The most likely subscripts - '''xi ro''', '''xi da'a''', '''xi re''' - are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;
*** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.
**Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance '''vo'a''' can define experimental cmavo with that function.
*** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
**** And then not be understood. Use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', '''lexenei'''. They exist, and they're standard.
***** True. Indeed, however '''vo'a''' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a '''nei'''/'''no'a''' expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]]).
* See now also a thread<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005</ref>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.
* [[.aulun.]]:
** I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) '''vo'a''', because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...)
* [[User:bairyn|bairyn]]
** If I were voting on a standard I'm currently leaning in favor of jcowan's porposal for the innermost application, including in descriptions, as default, but I don't have a strong opinion, and usage might currently be for the outermost more commonly, so it'd also depend on how much this standard would be conforming to usage or visa versa. I did propose variants of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' as experimental cmavo sequences that vary whether it's the outermost, innermost, in innermost-description that is used (''''ei''', ''''e''', and ''''e'i''' suffixes.). Here are my notes:
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed experimental cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' is a variant of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' and is the same except it is explicitly a pro-sumti for the current (innermost) bridi with the shortest possible scope (even in descriptions), rather than the outermost bridi, or the innermost / current full bridi, or with the bridi choice left vague.
*** '''ni'o''' The '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' sequence's choice of bridi is ambiguous: it depends on which Lojban standard you use. Under the CLL, it is the current bridi, meaning it is the same as the proposed cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e'''. Under '''la''' '''ma'oste''' usage, it is the outermost bridi. See also the English Lojban wiki's page titled ‘'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste’ for a discussion on this topic.
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed secondary axis index semantics: Use e.g. '''vo'a'exipi'ere''' to refer to the second-innermost bridi. Perhaps '''vei'''…'''ve'o''' can be used to nest groups if needed. (Without '''pi'e''', '''vo'a'e''' as usual if indexed with '''xi''' would just change what place it refers to, e.g. x6.) (Perhaps then '''vo'a'e''' would be shorthand for '''vo'axipi'eni'upa''' or '''vo'axipi'ero''' under the '''la''' '''ma'oste''' language dialect, saving 5 syllables.)
*** '''ni'o''' Additional proposed experimental cmavo sequences: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' selects bridi from the shortest possible scope, allowing for direct reflexives (even in descriptions) (suggested mneumonic: ‘'e’ as in ‘se’ for a reflexive pronomial verb in some languages), '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' selects bridi from the outermost bridi (suggested mneumonic: ‘'ei’ as in ‘nei’ (like ‘dei’) as an alternative to using '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' when combined with '''lo''' and SE), and '''vo'a'e'i'''…'''vo'u'e'i''' selects from the innermost / current full bridi (suggest mneumonic: adding an extra ‘'i’ looks similar to the outer-bridi-separator '''i''', and also ‘e'i’ is in ‘se'i’ which is a rafsi of '''sevzi'''). Finally, '''vo'a'o'e'''…'''vo'a'o'e''' could be defined for the variant of an unspecified bridi, as in '''xipi'exo'e'''. Example: in '''i''' '''mi''' '''krici''' '''lodu'u''' '''lo''' '''bende''' '''cu''' '''se''' '''xamgu''' '''lo''' '''djuno''' '''be''' '''fi''' '''vo'a''', the ‘'e’ variant (shortest) would mean that those who know themselves are good for the team, the ‘'ei’ variant (outermost) would mean that those who know the speaker are beneficial for the team, and the ‘'e'i’ variant would mean that those who know the team are good for it.
=References=

'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste

2025-04-29T23:50:41Z

Bairyn:

* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:
** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the main bridi, rather than the current bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.
** Comments?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
**** Another issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.
**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.
**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.
**** I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the [[CLL|Refgramm]] allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of '''vo'a''', and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop '''vo'a''' from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.
**** PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of '''vo'a'''.
**** However...
**** See [[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]].
*** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
**** I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''.
***** [[adam|adam:]]
****** But '''vo'a''' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that '''sevzi''' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]].
Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.

{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}
*xod:
** Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.
** Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', where there is ambiguity (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.
** Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?
*****xod:
******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?
*******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list and Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.
*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.
***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku|kujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)
****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
***** Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of all instances of '''vo'a''' were in fact long-distance - not just of the instances of '''vo'a''' within embedded structures. People actually avoided using '''vo'a''' when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and sought it out when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you.
*[[Adam|Adam:]]
** The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance '''vo'a'''. I'll now try to use it that way consistently.
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**It's no wonder that '''vo'a''' usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.
** IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted '''vo'a'''.
**The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted '''vo'a''' has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as '''vo'a xi ro''', i.e. long-distance to main bridi.
**Yes of course subscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:
*** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;
*** The most likely subscripts - '''xi ro''', '''xi da'a''', '''xi re''' - are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;
*** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.
**Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance '''vo'a''' can define experimental cmavo with that function.
*** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
**** And then not be understood. Use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', '''lexenei'''. They exist, and they're standard.
***** True. Indeed, however '''vo'a''' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a '''nei'''/'''no'a''' expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]]).
* See now also a thread<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005</ref>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.
* [[.aulun.]]:
** I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) '''vo'a''', because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...)
* [[User:bairyn|bairyn]]
** If I were voting on a standard I'm currently leaning in favor of jcowan's porposal for the innermost application, including in descriptions, as default, but I don't have a strong opinion, and usage might currently be for the outermost more commonly, so it'd also depend on how much this standard would be conforming to usage or visa versa. I did propose variants of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' as experimental cmavo sequences that vary whether it's the outermost, innermost, in innermost-description that is used (''''ei''', ''''e''', and ''''e'i''' suffixes.). Here are my notes:
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed experimental cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' is a variant of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' and is the same except it is explicitly a pro-sumti for the current (innermost) bridi, rather than the outermost bridi, or the innermost application (even within descriptions), or with the bridi choice left vague.
*** '''ni'o''' The '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' sequence's choice of bridi is ambiguous: it depends on which Lojban standard you use. Under the CLL, it is the current bridi, meaning it is the same as the proposed cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e'''. Under '''la''' '''ma'oste''' usage, it is the outermost bridi. See also the English Lojban wiki's page titled ‘'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste’ for a discussion on this topic.
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed secondary axis index semantics: Use e.g. '''vo'a'exipi'ere''' to refer to the second-innermost bridi. Perhaps '''vei'''…'''ve'o''' can be used to nest groups if needed. (Without '''pi'e''', '''vo'a'e''' as usual if indexed with '''xi''' would just change what place it refers to, e.g. x6.) (Perhaps then '''vo'a'e''' would be shorthand for '''vo'axipi'eni'upa''' or '''vo'axipi'ero''' under the '''la''' '''ma'oste''' language dialect, saving 5 syllables.)
*** '''ni'o''' Additional proposed experimental cmavo sequences: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' selects bridi from the innermost (suggested mneumonic: ‘'e’ as in ‘se’ for a reflexive pronomial verb in some languages), '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' selects bridi from the outermost bridi (suggested mneumonic: ‘'ei’ as in ‘nei’ (like ‘dei’) as an alternative to using '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' when combined with '''lo''' and SE), and '''vo'a'e'i'''…'''vo'u'e'i''' selects from the innermost applicable selbri, allowing for direct reflexives, even in applications (suggest mneumonic: rafsi of '''sevzi'''). Finally, '''vo'a'o'e'''…'''vo'a'o'e''' could be defined for the variant of an unspecified bridi, as in '''xipi'exo'e'''. Example: in '''i''' '''mi''' '''krici''' '''lodu'u''' '''lo''' '''bende''' '''cu''' '''se''' '''xamgu''' '''lo''' '''djuno''' '''be''' '''fi''' '''vo'a''', the ''''ei''' variant (outermost) would mean that those who know the speaker are good for the team, the ''''e''' (innermost / current) variant would mean that those who know the team are good for it, and the ''''e'i''' variant would mean that those who know themselves are beneficial for the team.
=References=

'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste

2025-04-29T23:42:36Z

Bairyn:

* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:
** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the main bridi, rather than the current bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.
** Comments?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
**** Another issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.
**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.
**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.
**** I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the [[CLL|Refgramm]] allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of '''vo'a''', and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop '''vo'a''' from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.
**** PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of '''vo'a'''.
**** However...
**** See [[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]].
*** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
**** I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''.
***** [[adam|adam:]]
****** But '''vo'a''' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that '''sevzi''' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]].
Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.

{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}
*xod:
** Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.
** Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', where there is ambiguity (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.
** Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?
*****xod:
******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?
*******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list and Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.
*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:
**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.
***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku|kujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)
****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
***** Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of all instances of '''vo'a''' were in fact long-distance - not just of the instances of '''vo'a''' within embedded structures. People actually avoided using '''vo'a''' when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and sought it out when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you.
*[[Adam|Adam:]]
** The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance '''vo'a'''. I'll now try to use it that way consistently.
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**It's no wonder that '''vo'a''' usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.
** IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted '''vo'a'''.
**The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted '''vo'a''' has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as '''vo'a xi ro''', i.e. long-distance to main bridi.
**Yes of course subscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:
*** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;
*** The most likely subscripts - '''xi ro''', '''xi da'a''', '''xi re''' - are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;
*** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.
**Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance '''vo'a''' can define experimental cmavo with that function.
*** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
**** And then not be understood. Use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', '''lexenei'''. They exist, and they're standard.
***** True. Indeed, however '''vo'a''' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a '''nei'''/'''no'a''' expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]]).
* See now also a thread<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005</ref>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.
* [[.aulun.]]:
** I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) '''vo'a''', because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...)
* [[User:bairyn|bairyn]]
** If I were voting on a standard I'm currently leaning in favor of jcowan's porposal for the innermost application, including in descriptions, but I don't have a strong opinion, and usage might currently be for the outermost more commonly, so it'd also depend on how much this standard would be conforming to usage or visa versa. I did propose variants of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' as experimental cmavo sequences that vary whether it's the outermost, innermost, in innermost-description that is used (''''ei''', ''''e''', and ''''e'i''' suffixes.). Here are my notes:
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed experimental cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' is a variant of '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' and is the same except it is explicitly a pro-sumti for the current (innermost) bridi, rather than the outermost bridi, or the innermost application (even within descriptions), or with the bridi choice left vague.
*** '''ni'o''' The '''vo'a'''…'''vo'u''' sequence's choice of bridi is ambiguous: it depends on which Lojban standard you use. Under the CLL, it is the current bridi, meaning it is the same as the proposed cmavo sequence: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e'''. Under '''la''' '''ma'oste''' usage, it is the outermost bridi. See also the English Lojban wiki's page titled ‘'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste’ for a discussion on this topic.
*** '''ni'o''' Proposed secondary axis index semantics: Use e.g. '''vo'a'exipi'ere''' to refer to the second-innermost bridi. Perhaps '''vei'''…'''ve'o''' can be used to nest groups if needed. (Without '''pi'e''', '''vo'a'e''' as usual if indexed with '''xi''' would just change what place it refers to, e.g. x6.) (Perhaps then '''vo'a'e''' would be shorthand for '''vo'axipi'eni'upa''' or '''vo'axipi'ero''' under the '''la''' '''ma'oste''' language dialect, saving 5 syllables.)
*** '''ni'o''' Additional proposed experimental cmavo sequences: '''vo'a'e'''…'''vo'u'e''' selects bridi from the innermost (suggested mneumonic: ‘'e’ as in ‘se’ for a reflexive pronomial verb in some languages), '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' selects bridi from the outermost bridi (suggested mneumonic: ‘'ei’ as in ‘nei’ (like ‘dei’) as an alternative to using '''vo'a'ei'''…'''vo'u'ei''' when combined with '''lo''' and SE), and '''vo'a'e'i'''…'''vo'u'e'i''' selects from the innermost applicable selbri, allowing for direct reflexives, even in applications (suggest mneumonic: rafsi of '''sevzi'''). Finally, '''vo'a'o'e'''…'''vo'a'o'e''' could be defined for the variant of an unspecified bridi, as in '''xipi'exo'e'''. Example: in '''i''' '''mi''' '''krici''' '''lodu'u''' '''lo''' '''bende''' '''cu''' '''se''' '''xamgu''' '''lo''' '''djuno''' '''be''' '''fi''' '''vo'a''', the ''''ei''' variant (outermost) would mean that those who know the speaker are good for the team, the ''''e''' (innermost / current) variant would mean that those who know the team are good for it, and the ''''e'i''' variant would mean that those who know themselves are beneficial for the team.
=References=

type 4 fu'ivla

2024-09-11T23:56:40Z

Bairyn: Update comprehensive form section after update that adds the missing slinku'i test part of fu'ivla (condition #3); adding it changes the tables a bit.

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 of the 5 CLL conditions. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a consonant/vowel cluster that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th (+1 if the rafsi isn't the CVC variant) letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''initial'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''initial'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction), or 2) starts with a vowel (‘.v’) that necessarily morphologically separates it from anything preceding it, or 3) including, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of the 4 normal fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv), either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state (one that leaves no possibility of a valid rafsi decomposition, by following the reductions listed in the table), according to the table, or 4) ending in 1 of the 4 fu'ivla tail forms (c, cv, cc, ccvcc) (only ‘cv’ ends in ‘v’, so only it is conseqential for fu'ivla determination), if hyphenization is ignored. (For cases #3 and #4, the table includes the slinku'i test (condition #3 in CLL 4.7).)

<code><pre>
v
c
(vv)
vc *
vcv *
vcc *
vccv
(vccc)
vcvv -> v
vcvc
(vccvv)
vccvc
(vcvcv)
vcvcc
vccvcv ->
vccvcc *
vccvccv
vccvccc -> vcc
vccvccvv -> v
vccvccvc
vcvccv ->
vcvccc -> vccvcc
cv -> vcv
cc
vccvccvcv ->
vccvccvcc -> cc
ccv -> vccvccv
ccc -> vccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/fuhivla-forms (Table source and examples.)]

type 4 fu'ivla

2024-09-03T23:06:54Z

Bairyn: (‘Table source => {and examples}’.)

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 criteria. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a consonant/vowel cluster that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''initial'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''initial'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction), or 2) including, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of the 4 normal fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv), either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state (one that leaves no possibility of a valid rafsi decomposition, by following the reductions listed in the table), according to the following table, or 3) ending in 1 of the 4 fu'ivla tail forms (c, cv, cc, ccvcc) (only ‘cv’ ends in ‘v’, so only it is conseqential for fu'ivla determination), if hyphenization is ignored:

<code><pre>
(v)
c *
cv *
cc *
ccv
(ccc)
cvv ->
cvc
(ccvv)
ccvc
(cvcv)
cvcc
ccvcv
ccvcc *
ccvccv
ccvccc -> cc
ccvcvv ->
ccvcvc
ccvccvv ->
ccvccvc
cvccv -> ccvcv
cvccc -> ccvcc
ccvcvcv -> cv
ccvcvcc
ccvccvcv -> ccvcv
ccvccvcc -> ccvcvcc
ccvcvccv -> ccvccv
ccvcvccc -> ccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/lujvo-forms (Table source and examples.)]

type 4 fu'ivla

2024-09-03T22:17:50Z

Bairyn: Add third comprehensive kind I forgot: the fu'ivla tail form ‘cv’.

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 criteria. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a consonant/vowel cluster that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''initial'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''initial'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction), or 2) including, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of the 4 normal fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv), either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state (one that leaves no possibility of a valid rafsi decomposition, by following the reductions listed in the table), according to the following table, or 3) ending in 1 of the 4 fu'ivla tail forms (c, cv, cc, ccvcc) (only ‘cv’ ends in ‘v’, so only it is conseqential for fu'ivla determination), if hyphenization is ignored:

<code><pre>
(v)
c *
cv *
cc *
ccv
(ccc)
cvv ->
cvc
(ccvv)
ccvc
(cvcv)
cvcc
ccvcv
ccvcc *
ccvccv
ccvccc -> cc
ccvcvv ->
ccvcvc
ccvccvv ->
ccvccvc
cvccv -> ccvcv
cvccc -> ccvcc
ccvcvcv -> cv
ccvcvcc
ccvccvcv -> ccvcv
ccvccvcc -> ccvcvcc
ccvcvccv -> ccvccv
ccvcvccc -> ccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/lujvo-forms (Table source.)]

type 4 fu'ivla

2024-04-06T00:05:42Z

Bairyn: Assuming no error, I think I figured out the 4 fu'ivla forms. Here I'm contributing my work on this. Hope this helps!

[[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]] which, unlike [[Type 3 fu'ivla|type 3 fu'ivla]], do not have a rafsi prefixed to them to provide a semantic hint.

See also [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]], [[Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms|Exhaustive list of short fu'ivla forms]].

===Discussion===
See also [[Positive characterization of fu'ivla space|Positive characterization of fu'ivla space]].
* [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta:]]
** What opponents of type-4 fu'ivla doesn't seem to appreciate, and what the rules on the [[Making type-4 fu'ivla]] page don't seem to recognize, is that fu'ivla are not necessarily borrowings. Fu'ivla are simply a morphophonologically-defined word class, along with cmavo, gismu and cmene. Type 4 fu'ivla allow for new elegant disyllabic wordforms for new concepts. If you need a new word and no obvious elegant lujvo is available, then a nice option is to manufacture a type 4 fu'ivla.
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** What proponents of type-4 fu'ivla don't seem to appreciate is that the ''en masse'' introduction of a novel morphophonological class into a language as pernickety, intractable, and all-round brain-sapping as Lojban is impolitic; human lexing of Lojban is hard enough already. The primary responsibility of the Lojbanist remains to be intelligible - not cute.
**** xod:
***** But presumably these are widely-known within in the community, in common usage, and not created nonce. Hence, the stage-3 hazing period.
****** mark:
******* On the contrary, nonce-ness can be a Good Thing. As And points out, fu'ivla are just another class of words. They're essentially a boundless source of ''broda''-style brivla variables. Just like we can use any string of lerfu as a ''ko'a''-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ''ko'a'' series at all), we can use any brivla-that's-not-anything-else (i.e. not a gismu, cmavo, cmene, or lujvo) as a ''broda''-type variable and assign with ''cei'', for the course of a given discussion. People are always redefining their words for a discourse at hand. Fu'ivla have the advantage that they are a strong memory hook/hint that you have something specific in mind that the audience might understand; ''kelcrgo'' defined as a strategy game is more likely to be understood as Go than ''broda'' defined the same way. In actual conversation, you'd probably check that your interlocutor knows what you're talking about. See my similar rant under [[terki|terki]]. Then again, most of the proponents of type-4 fu'ivla aren't after quite that result''.''
******* [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
******** hrm. i like that quite a bit, fwiw.
******** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
********* .i ku'i doi mark ledo selsku na steci lei fu'ivla pe li vo .i mi xanku tu'a lei fu'ivla pe li vo ge'u .enai ro fu'ivla

* [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
** Here's a type-4 I made up which isn't copied from another language: ''tsaparatsa'i'', "ratamacue" (a triplet pattern played on a drum). Both the Lojban word and the English word are imitative of the rhythm pattern.
* la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
** Those that love type 4 fu'ivla and love using the [[slinku'i test|slinku'i test]] every time they want to mention an animal are hereby encouraged to translate ''20,000 Leagues Under the Sea''. If you can do that and have ''every'' fu'ivla be recognizable as the name mentioned in the book, as well as not being confusing in that, for instance, triggerfish when called by the common name should be different from the Linnean name - if you can do that I will never complain about fu'ivla of any variety again.
** [[Pierre Abbat|phma:]]
*** Whether the common name for a particular animal or plant has any resemblance to the Linnean name depends on the language. What in English is called "purple pitcher plant" is called in French "sarracénie pourpre", which differs by only a few letters from the scientific name. The French words "orge", "seigle", and "avoine" (but not "blé", but Spanish "trigo") are derived from the Latin words which are those grains' genus names. Most of the fu'ivla I've been coining as common names are from Linnean, but the latest one, "xarcufu", isn't - it's from the Arabic word that the English common name comes from. (It got mangled in Italian: arcicioffo -> arciciocco.) For a triggerfish, how about jestelfi'e?
*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]
**** It matters because the book talks several times about how the common names are more interesting than the Linnean. How would you translate into French a book saying that the French names of animals are more interesting than the English ones? The same way you deal with this, o ye of little faith. (applying xod's "Lojban needn't convey all nuances of all languages" where it belongs) to vocab. Actually, the English version talks about how the English common names are more colorful than the scientific names, and at least once says something about how "Fishermen are better poets than naturalists."

===Comprehensive Form===
CLL section 4.7 defines the morphology of fu'ivla. They are brivla that are not gismu or lujvo and that satisfy the other 4 criteria. This effectively means that fu'ivla consist of valid ‘y’-less brivla with either 1) a consonant/vowel cluster that cannot appear in lujvo (this is why stage 3 fu'ivla are necessarily fu'ivla: the 4th, 5th, and 6th letters are consonants, but (section 4.1) no valid ''_initial_'' consonant pair starts with ‘r’, ‘n’, or ‘l’, and in lujvo consonant triples must have both pairs be valid ''_initial_'' consonant pairs (i.e. what section CLL 4.1 denotes as ‘CC’ rather than ‘C/C’) (see CLL section 3.7 and also CLL section 4.7's 2 ‘triple’ sentences), but fu'ivla do not have this restriction) or 2) having, if hyphenization is ignored, the right cv form, with 1 of the 4 fu'ivla forms (v, ccc, ccvv, and cvcv), either at the beginning or with a prefix that has the right rafsi decomposition parser state, according to the following table:

<code><pre>(v)
c *
cv *
cc *
ccv
(ccc)
cvv ->
cvc
(ccvv)
ccvc
(cvcv)
cvcc
ccvcv
ccvcc *
ccvccv
ccvccc -> cc
ccvcvv ->
ccvcvc
ccvccvv ->
ccvccvc
cvccv -> ccvcv
cvccc -> ccvcc
ccvcvcv -> cv
ccvcvcc
ccvccvcv -> ccvcv
ccvccvcc -> ccvcvcc
ccvcvccv -> ccvccv
ccvcvccc -> ccvcc</pre></code>

[https://github.com/bairyn/lujvo-forms (Table source.)]