we can build a church or a school: Difference between revisions

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== Introduction ==
Suppose you are at a community meeting, deciding what to build, and you have enough building materials for a church or a school, but not both. The obvious way to say this, {ma'a ka'e zbasu lo malsi .onai lo ckule}, does not work; it means that exactly one of "We can build a church" and "We can build a school" is true. (''um, isn't that the same thing?'' '''No, they are both true, until you do the other one.''') The correct way to say it is {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi jonai ckule}.


Story Time With Uncle Robin is a voicechat session run by [[jbocre: camgusmis|camgusmis]] at his own convenience.  Basically, it's slightly more structured voice chat where everyone who joins knows that ''someone'' will actually be speaking in Lojban instead of just saying "coi" and trying to think of something to say, even if the only one talking is [[jbocre: camgusmis e|camgusmis e]].  STWUR is primarily about my own Lojban development, and I make no apologies for that, but I do try to include everyone who shows up.
If we can build a church, a school, or a hospital, it becomes more complicated. {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi jonai ckule jonai spita} means "We can build a church, a school, a hospital, or a three-purpose building". To say that we can build any one of the three, say {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa lu'a lo malsi ku ce lo ckule ku ce lo spita}. See [[Do you want coffee or tea?]].


The goal of STWUR is to get as many people as possible (starting with myself :) to the point where they find themselves not thinking about Lojban or ''how'' to say things, but thinking about ''what'' to say and that coming out in Lojban naturally and with no mental effort.
OK, these are all good points.  But aren't both the ''pa malsi jonai ckule'' and the ''pa lu'a lo malsi ku ce lo ckule ku'' solutions ambiguous?  Specifically, between the meanings "We can build '''any one''' of a church or a school, but only one," and "We can build one of: a church or a school (actually, we can only build a school, but that's one of them, right?  And I'm not telling you that because either I'm being obnoxious or I don't know which, but there's only one we can build)."  I suppose we could always go lo-tech and say ''ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi .ije ma'a ka'e zbasu pa ckule .iku'i ma'a ka'e zbasu pa dinju po'o'' or something like that, with multiple sentences, but that's very lobykai. Thoughts?  ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''


==  Format ==
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Past STWUR have been based on [http://www.kith.org/logos/things/sitpuz/situations.html ituation Puzzles], because games tend to get people engaged.  However, there tended to be a lot of dead air, mostly because people who are thinking deeply don't talk much.  So instead we're going to try a modified [http://teddyb.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/munchausen.pdf aron Munchausen RPG].  Don't be scared of the "RPG" there; it's dead simple.  Please download that file only once; it is large (~7MiB; large for my pipe)!  Also, if you like the game, please buy it!  I'd insist you all do so, but it's rather hard to find.
''ma'a malsi ja ckule zbasu kakne''


The variations between STWUR's new format and the standard Munchausen RPG are as follows:
Well, yes, if you're big on tanru and down on bridi.  Why not just ''mi ka'e zbasu lo malsi .a lo ckule''?  (or ''.onai'' for ''.a'', depending)


* No wagers, duels, or winners.  My friends and I have played the game quite enjoyably without them.
* Note that this is exactly the same sentence which the first paragraph points out does not work.
** Objections are still perfectly acceptable, however.  Since they have no bearing on winning the game (there being no winning or losing), they should be chosen for dramatic/comedic effect.


*** An objection is a non-trivial task for someone with low Lojban skill; ta'a is your friend here.  Use it and we'll wait for you.  For a while, anyways.
''Why do people spend time offering alternate translations that are only just as good, or marginally better?''
*** [[jbocre: Powell's Principle of Non-Gluteality|Powell's Principle of Non-Gluteality]] applies fully to these non-monetary objections; don't object constantly unless every one is amazingly funny, and if someone sends an objection your way, accept it if it is more dramatic/funnier to do so.


* Play doesn't pass to the person on your right, or in any other direction, as this will be voice chat over the 'net; the whole concept doesn't make much sense.  Instead, when done with your story, offer the next turn up with something like "ma djica lo nu te lisri".
Matter of opinion.  Me, I think the tanru-only version is needlessly cutesy and ambiguous, while the full-bridi version has the advantage of actually (gasp) saying what is desired.
** If someone responds in the affirmative ("mi"), you should give them a story seed as per usual (".ui pe'u sai doi fraso nolraitru ko skicu lo nu do citka mu no no xarju ca pa cerni gi'e nai plana binxo").


*** You are permitted to cop out with something like "ko te lisri fi da poi do djica", but we'll snicker and say things like ".oi ro'a na virnu".
I'm personally wondering why someone thought this would be hard to say in Lojban...
** If no-one responds in the affirmative, feel free to go again.  Feel free to ask others for story ideas ("doi ro do do djica lo nu mi skicu ma"). If any silence lasts for very long, I'll just start in on a story myself. You have been warned.


* I don't see much point in keeping track of titles, especially over voice chat; make up a new title for anyone and everyone as often as you like.  The more baroque, the better ("doi le ralju be ro vofli smani poi xabju le brito daplu").
----


== Getting Invited ==
How about saying "Do we want to build a church or a school?"?  How do we make sure the answer isn't "go'i"?


Pretty much anyone is invited.  To get the announcements, join the jbosnu or jbofongri mailing lists (see [[jbocre: Lojbanic Forums|Lojbanic Forums]]).  Or just [[jbocre: camgusmis ail me|camgusmis ail me]].  I'm going to be aiming for about once a week.
''ma'a djica lenu zbasu lo malsi ji lo ckule''. This is the classic use for ''ji''.


===  Fluency Requirements ===
ma'a djica le nu zbasu ma po'u lo malsi .a lo ckule


There is no particular fluency requirement, but as much as possible of the conversation on the channel will be in Lojban, with no translations given in general.  So your own fluency is irrelevant if you just want to listen in, but if you want to say something please try to say it in Lojban.  "ko denpa .e'o" is helpful here.
----


== Software ==
Is it possible to use sets to 1) ask which one of a set applies to a bridi and/or 2) show an action/relationship done by members of a set to other members of a set?


We'll be using [http://www.goteamspeak.com/ eamSpeak] with the server chain.lojban.org.  If you have any difficulties, please visit [[jbocre: Lojbanic Forums he #lojban IRC channel|Lojbanic Forums he #lojban IRC channel]] and we'll try to help you out.
'''Interesting idea! Can you give an example or a few hints so we can start working on it? --xod'''


== Audio For Past STWUR Episodes ==
I'm guessing the question is things like "which members of the team are over 2 meters tall?"(1) and "The seven businessmen shaved each other's backs"(2).  Hmm.  Those would be (1) ''ma poi ke'a cmima le bende cu mitre li su'ore'' perhaps?  Though that doesn't explicitly use sets, only because I used ''bende''.  I could have had a set there instead.  and (2) ... um, tougher.  I can do it pretty precisely (though without specifics), but it's wordy: ''roda poi cmima le'i ze kagni gunka ku'o de poi cmima le'i ze kagni gunka zo'u de krevi'u lo trixysefta be da gi'enai du da'' or something hideous like that (yes, this allows some lazy businessmen not to do any shaving, which I think is closer to the meaning of the original sentence).  There are probably better ways. ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''


* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 1]]
*''lei ze kagni gunka cu simxu le ka ce'u krevi'u lo trixysefta be ce'u''
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 2]]
 
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 3]]
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 4]]
 
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 5]]
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 6]]
 
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 7]]
* [[jbocre: Story Time With Uncle Robin 8]]

Latest revision as of 08:37, 30 June 2014

Suppose you are at a community meeting, deciding what to build, and you have enough building materials for a church or a school, but not both. The obvious way to say this, {ma'a ka'e zbasu lo malsi .onai lo ckule}, does not work; it means that exactly one of "We can build a church" and "We can build a school" is true. (um, isn't that the same thing? No, they are both true, until you do the other one.) The correct way to say it is {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi jonai ckule}.

If we can build a church, a school, or a hospital, it becomes more complicated. {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi jonai ckule jonai spita} means "We can build a church, a school, a hospital, or a three-purpose building". To say that we can build any one of the three, say {ma'a ka'e zbasu pa lu'a lo malsi ku ce lo ckule ku ce lo spita}. See Do you want coffee or tea?.

OK, these are all good points. But aren't both the pa malsi jonai ckule and the pa lu'a lo malsi ku ce lo ckule ku solutions ambiguous? Specifically, between the meanings "We can build any one of a church or a school, but only one," and "We can build one of: a church or a school (actually, we can only build a school, but that's one of them, right? And I'm not telling you that because either I'm being obnoxious or I don't know which, but there's only one we can build)." I suppose we could always go lo-tech and say ma'a ka'e zbasu pa malsi .ije ma'a ka'e zbasu pa ckule .iku'i ma'a ka'e zbasu pa dinju po'o or something like that, with multiple sentences, but that's very lobykai. Thoughts? --mi'e .mark.

ma'a malsi ja ckule zbasu kakne

Well, yes, if you're big on tanru and down on bridi. Why not just mi ka'e zbasu lo malsi .a lo ckule? (or .onai for .a, depending)

  • Note that this is exactly the same sentence which the first paragraph points out does not work.

Why do people spend time offering alternate translations that are only just as good, or marginally better?

Matter of opinion. Me, I think the tanru-only version is needlessly cutesy and ambiguous, while the full-bridi version has the advantage of actually (gasp) saying what is desired.

I'm personally wondering why someone thought this would be hard to say in Lojban...

How about saying "Do we want to build a church or a school?"? How do we make sure the answer isn't "go'i"?

ma'a djica lenu zbasu lo malsi ji lo ckule. This is the classic use for ji.

ma'a djica le nu zbasu ma po'u lo malsi .a lo ckule

Is it possible to use sets to 1) ask which one of a set applies to a bridi and/or 2) show an action/relationship done by members of a set to other members of a set?

Interesting idea! Can you give an example or a few hints so we can start working on it? --xod

I'm guessing the question is things like "which members of the team are over 2 meters tall?"(1) and "The seven businessmen shaved each other's backs"(2). Hmm. Those would be (1) ma poi ke'a cmima le bende cu mitre li su'ore perhaps? Though that doesn't explicitly use sets, only because I used bende. I could have had a set there instead. and (2) ... um, tougher. I can do it pretty precisely (though without specifics), but it's wordy: roda poi cmima le'i ze kagni gunka ku'o de poi cmima le'i ze kagni gunka zo'u de krevi'u lo trixysefta be da gi'enai du da or something hideous like that (yes, this allows some lazy businessmen not to do any shaving, which I think is closer to the meaning of the original sentence). There are probably better ways. --mi'e .mark.

  • lei ze kagni gunka cu simxu le ka ce'u krevi'u lo trixysefta be ce'u
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